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Welcome To Life

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Re: Welcome To Life

#71

Post by fallous »

jlgreco wrote: post #64
indiecore wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you accept dualism (that there is some 'you' separate from the wetware in your head) you are always going to have this problem. A copy of 'you' would only sync with 'you' for an infinitesimal amount of time before you both diverged. The two 'yous' both have valid claim to everything before the Split but afterwards you are effectively two different people.

This is where the following thought experiment comes in: Imagine science advances to the point where medical science can replace individual brain cells with perfect robot replicas. These robot cells interact with surrounding cells in exactly the same way as the real ones and can be initialized with the state of the real cell they are replacing. They're small though, so all the real computation work they may need to d…

The difference is that the original you exists on a consistent space-time arc. Copy of you diverges from that, and becomes not you. To external observers, not you appears to be exactly like you but it isn't you because your mind is a process that is tied to that arc. Not you starts as you but then operates within alternate time-space arc.

Re: Welcome To Life

#72

Post by amalag »

As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.

The change of body is like changing your clothes. Does anyone really think conscoiusness is limited by matter?

Re: Welcome To Life

#73

Post by jlgreco »

fallous wrote: post #71
jlgreco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where the following thought experiment comes in: Imagine science advances to the point where medical science can replace individual brain cells with perfect robot replicas. These robot cells interact with surrounding cells in exactly the same way as the real ones and can be initialized with the state of the real cell they are replacing. They're small though, so all the real computation work they may need to d…

The difference is that the original you exists on a consistent space-time arc. Copy of you diverges from that, and becomes not you. To external observers, not you appears to be exactly like you but it isn't you because your mind is a process that is tied to that arc. Not you starts as you but then operates within alternate time-space arc.

In the case of metamorphosis there is only one "you" at any point in time. The concept of divergence doesn't make any sense if there is only one you. Diverge from what?

Re: Welcome To Life

#75

Post by jlgreco »

Rhapso wrote: post #70
jlgreco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where the following thought experiment comes in: Imagine science advances to the point where medical science can replace individual brain cells with perfect robot replicas. These robot cells interact with surrounding cells in exactly the same way as the real ones and can be initialized with the state of the real cell they are replacing. They're small though, so all the real computation work they may need to d…

We all really want to accept this idea. It is inviting. Not accepting it has a lot of scary implications. If small changes in the matter that makes up my mind "kills" me, then what happens when my body naturally replaces parts. In neurons, the whole cell is rarely replaced, but all components of it all, none of the atoms are there forever, it is only a matter of scale to replace neurons with "working replicas". So, a…

"No man ever steps in the same river twice"

Replacement with the subtly different is interpreted by our minds as "change". You no more "die" when the cells or atoms in your brain are replaced than a river dries up when all the water molecules you could see at one point in time flow away.

Re: Welcome To Life

#76

Post by gaius »

stephengillie wrote: post #60
Rhapso wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this goes back to the ages old problem of, "In Star Trek, the transporter killed you every time" We have this almost social idea of Body Continuity. As long as there is the same body the entire time you are still you and still "alive". A scarier truth is that all it takes is a decent change to how you brain is structured (bullet, railroad spike, fork through the skull) and you can very suddenly for all intents and pu…

One example from history (railroad spike through the head in 1848); https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Phineas_Gage

More recent example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17703018

Re: Welcome To Life

#77

Post by gaius »

jlgreco wrote: post #64
indiecore wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you accept dualism (that there is some 'you' separate from the wetware in your head) you are always going to have this problem. A copy of 'you' would only sync with 'you' for an infinitesimal amount of time before you both diverged. The two 'yous' both have valid claim to everything before the Split but afterwards you are effectively two different people.

This is where the following thought experiment comes in: Imagine science advances to the point where medical science can replace individual brain cells with perfect robot replicas. These robot cells interact with surrounding cells in exactly the same way as the real ones and can be initialized with the state of the real cell they are replacing. They're small though, so all the real computation work they may need to d…

It would need to be really exactly the same, otherwise it is actually just a damaged neuron and the rest of the brain will continue normally, working around it just as it would a normally dying cell. Until some tipping point was reached, and what would you be - perhaps a read-only version of yourself?

Re: Welcome To Life

#78

Post by jlgreco »

gaius wrote: post #77
jlgreco wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where the following thought experiment comes in: Imagine science advances to the point where medical science can replace individual brain cells with perfect robot replicas. These robot cells interact with surrounding cells in exactly the same way as the real ones and can be initialized with the state of the real cell they are replacing. They're small though, so all the real computation work they may need to d…

It would need to be really exactly the same, otherwise it is actually just a damaged neuron and the rest of the brain will continue normally, working around it just as it would a normally dying cell. Until some tipping point was reached, and what would you be - perhaps a read-only version of yourself?

Eh, I think of it more as a thought experiment than an engineering proposal.

Re: Welcome To Life

#79

Post by Rhapso »

jlgreco wrote: post #75
Rhapso wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all really want to accept this idea. It is inviting. Not accepting it has a lot of scary implications. If small changes in the matter that makes up my mind "kills" me, then what happens when my body naturally replaces parts. In neurons, the whole cell is rarely replaced, but all components of it all, none of the atoms are there forever, it is only a matter of scale to replace neurons with "working replicas". So, a…

"No man ever steps in the same river twice" Replacement with the subtly different is interpreted by our minds as "change". You no more "die" when the cells or atoms in your brain are replaced than a river dries up when all the water molecules you could see at one point in time flow away.

Exactly. "You no more "die" when the cells or atoms in your brain are replaced than a river dries up when all the water molecules you could see at one point in time flow away." when we find a way to measure this little death relative to the bigger more permanent one we can make interesting arguments. My advice, assume the transporter/uploading-machine will kill you. You will use it anyway for the same reason you use a credit card at the grocery store or corner market, you will be worried that the people behind you will be annoyed by the delay caused from your hesitation and the person who comes out the other side will not begrudge you for creating them.

Re: Welcome To Life

#80

Post by gaius »

jlgreco wrote: post #78
gaius wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would need to be really exactly the same, otherwise it is actually just a damaged neuron and the rest of the brain will continue normally, working around it just as it would a normally dying cell. Until some tipping point was reached, and what would you be - perhaps a read-only version of yourself?

Eh, I think of it more as a thought experiment than an engineering proposal.

It hinges not on engineering (the mechanism for inserting an artificial cell and it communicating with an external computer) but whether consciousness is computable in a Turing machine. The new "you" might be deterministic.
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