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NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

nimh.nih.gov

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Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#71

Post by thfuran »

habinero wrote: post #68
improv wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diabetes is a biological disease which can be objectively proven and diagnosed based on biological tests. There are no objective biological diagnostic criteria for anything in the DSM. "psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests" -Allen Frances, The New Crisis of Confidence in Psychiatric Diagnosis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_France…

That's only because we have no way to measure it, not because it's not also a physical problem.

Also, it's really not the case that non-mental diseases have categorically clearer diagnostic criteria.

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#72

Post by faeriechangling »

TalEs wrote: post #64
faeriechangling wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We did resist giving our son medication, and waited until he decided that he wanted to try it (16 years) I sincerely think this is a good thing to do and gives people a healthier relationship to mental health than being coerced into taking drugs with harsh side-effects.

What are the harsh side effects you speak of?

Insomnia, fatigue, appetite loss, anxiety, irritability, paranoia. Side-effects for amphetamines being stronger than for methylphenidate.

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#73

Post by faeriechangling »

viraptor wrote: post #70
faeriechangling wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We did resist giving our son medication, and waited until he decided that he wanted to try it (16 years) I sincerely think this is a good thing to do and gives people a healthier relationship to mental health than being coerced into taking drugs with harsh side-effects.

> coerced into taking drugs with harsh side-effects. You're not guaranteed side effects. If you do experience them, you'd normally get different medication options. Also, you can have discussion about it and the effects. If you end up anywhere close to coercing regardless of side effects, it's not the drugs that are the problem.

>You're not guaranteed side effects. If you do experience them, you'd normally get different medication options

"Not guaranteed side-effects" is also something that's technically true, but essentially bullshit. Here's a study [1] where 71 children were studied. How many children had adverse effects? 71. This is how children are often convinced to take drugs. They are misled by people who either do or should know better, rather than being told in a more honest way "well yes if you start on methylphenidate you will have side-effects, but the pros outweigh the cons for many children". This might not be coercion, but it is manipulation. This destroys their trust in the mental health system.

What actually happens is you take the drug, you get side-effects, and you are asked if you can tolerate them. If you can't tolerate them, you'll likely switch from methylphenidate to amphetamine or vice versa, and then see if you can tolerate those or one of the many IR and XR variations or various slightly different drugs. If you can't, it's onto Strattera. Then onto guanfacine/clondine (which can also be stacked with stimulants). Then it's to off-label stuff like Wellbutrin which seldom works. Then if you've done everything you might, in some places, be offered a chance to take desoxyn.

>If you end up anywhere close to coercing regardless of side effects, it's not the drugs that are the problem.

Well, my own childhood was filled with manipulation, coercion, and perjury which were all done to subject me to medical treatments that otherwise I would have never have willingly done or been eligible for. All four of these things involved my parents and a board certified psychiatrist. Maybe I just had a fucked up childhood, but just in case I didn't, I praise people like the above poster when they show respect for their Childs autonomy. I never had a chance to develop a healthy relationship with the mental health system, so I praise parents who give their child that oppertunity. When it's so easy to just go, well my child's disabled, they don't really know what's going on, I'll just manipulate and coerce them and they'll thank me one day.

When that happens, it might not be the drugs that are the problem, but your child may associate drugs with coercion, with manipulation, with non-consent. Useful wonderful miraculous drugs become a scapegoat for a problem adults caused, to your child's detriment.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4262859/

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#74

Post by Auracle »

2four2 wrote: post #13
_fat_santa wrote: post #2

I've always been a cautious skeptic of ADHD in children. On the one hand I know ADHD is a thing and that it legitimately affects some children, but on the other hand I realize that alot of ADHD symptoms overlap with the general nature of children, especially boys. My wonder is when does it to go from a kid just being a kid to a child actually affected by ADHD. Often times it's described as just not being able to pay…

> The drugs also scare me... The idea of giving something like that to a child profoundly scares me. It works differently in people with the disorder. I took Adderall as a child and as an adult for adhd. It didn't get me wired nor did I have withdrawal symptoms, I simply felt more centered and capable of starting tasks. I know that we can only draw on our own experiences to judge things, but understand that people wi…

I take stimulants for idiopathic hypersomnia and ironically they give me ADHD like symptoms. It’s much harder to concentrate on a single task when I’m on them.

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#75

Post by sneed_chucker »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #29
pornel wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge difference between the common stereotype of ADHD (just rowdy children who can't sit still), and actual symptoms and diagnostic criteria. The difference is almost as comically warped as an image of a "hacker" in media vs actual hackers. ADHD includes many other things like weak short-term memory, defunct perception of time, hard to control hyperfocus, overwhelming inner monologue, and executive dysfunc…

I really like that you list a whole lot of things that ADHD includes that most people are unaware of, but I wanted to call attention to the two that probably had the largest negative impact on my own life Rejection Sensitivity and Emotional Disregulation I have always been paralyzed by being afraid of failure (rejection), and that has kept me from pursuing a lot of things in the past And I've always been prone to ang…

How long have you been on medication? I think I should start medication again (diagnosed 7 years ago in early adulthood) but am scared of the side effects of long term medication use.

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#76

Post by ChainOfFools »

TalEs wrote: post #63
whoknowsidont wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All quirky fun and games until you realize you can't do high-paying jobs that requires consistent focus. This is not a good understanding of ADHD. People with ADHD have hyperfocus tendencies, and this in fact can apply to their job while they ignore everything else. That is to say extremely successful people might be that way BECAUSE of their ADHD, not in spite of it. A programmer who devotes the majority of their l…

The thing with ADHD(maybe I am a special case) is that my focus tends to shift quickly and freely. What I might enjoy for a few months will no longer be fun, and I will move onto another subject that catches my attention, preventing me from fully delving into learning a craft, to the fullest extent. I envy people who can dedicate a majority of their time and focus into one particular thing, like programming or art. I…

I find a similar pattern at work for myself. Although I think I've finally accepted that I lose interest in whatever I'm hyper focused on right around the time additional progress can no longer be made merely by what I would describe as the advanced dabbling, DIY pattern recognition and puzzle solving reward cycles delivered by straight ADHD style hyperfocus, but instead only happens by applied and sustained structured learning techniques as well.

A mathematical example would be right around the point where one finds that the delightfully focused exploration/experimentation afforded by ADHD which carried you to self-discovery of, say, why SIN relates to COS through their derivatives, or through the Pythagorean theorem, doesn't actually get you very far in calculus unless you intend to re-invent, at great personal cost and to no practical advantage, a lot of very well-known wheels.

Instead you need that hard-won scaffolding of rote memorization, the almost muscle-memory capacity for sight-recognition of a couple dozen identities and theorems and familiar problem forms, to get much further.

Spontaneous yawning when you're wide awake and actively interested in what you're reading or learning is for me a telltale sign that I have reached the point where I'll I have to tack a frustrating zigzag course _against_ the ADHD winds instead of sailing with them.

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#77

Post by viraptor »

Auracle wrote: post #74
2four2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The drugs also scare me... The idea of giving something like that to a child profoundly scares me. It works differently in people with the disorder. I took Adderall as a child and as an adult for adhd. It didn't get me wired nor did I have withdrawal symptoms, I simply felt more centered and capable of starting tasks. I know that we can only draw on our own experiences to judge things, but understand that people wi…

I take stimulants for idiopathic hypersomnia and ironically they give me ADHD like symptoms. It’s much harder to concentrate on a single task when I’m on them.

There's a range where they seem to work for ADHD. (When/if they work for you) Higher dose and you're back to being all over the place.

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#78

Post by viraptor »

improv wrote: post #53
thfuran wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you also skeptical of obesity in teens because eating a lot is just the general nature of teens, especially boys? Are you appalled that diabetics take insulin every day because you once injected yourself with insulin you didn't need and experienced severe side effects?

Diabetes is a biological disease which can be objectively proven and diagnosed based on biological tests. There are no objective biological diagnostic criteria for anything in the DSM. "psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests" -Allen Frances, The New Crisis of Confidence in Psychiatric Diagnosis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_France…

While it's not commonly used, there are biological markers researched these days. Vitamin levels (https://sci-hub.se/10.1192/bjpo.bp.116.003491) and TRY/KYN/IND ratios (https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.mehy.2013.11.018) - YMMV, but following that thread, supplementing those works great for me.

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#79

Post by choppaface »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #36
bookofjoe wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That is a paper that you should not put your name on. I certainly would not. Their effects are also more like 0.11 not 0.15; the largest peak misrepresents all of the rest of the results. >What they did is aggregate so much data that even a small inconsequential difference between groups that may account for nothing at all, that would go away with slightly different controls for confounds, becomes statistically sign…

> Do you have a background and credentials as valid? I do. But we live in a world where people write you letters for promotion, review your grants, etc. Using your own name to say these things in public is bad for your career. So I'd rather not. Plenty has been said in scientific publications about how junk like this leads to most papers being false, how we shouldn't do statistics this way, etc. Scientists know, but…

I mean, Google publishes a lot of no-op papers that do not reproduce anywhere outside of Google, and yet many PCs accept them anyways.

Re: NIH Researchers Identify Brain Connections Associated with ADHD in Youth

#80

Post by choppaface »

bookofjoe wrote: post #31
Implicated wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Waste, space/time/etc.

I still don't understand how "no-op" translates to "Waste, space/time/etc." Help!

The OP using the term "no-op" is a Google employee and therefore anything that's a waste for them must necessarily be a waste for humanity.
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