Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired • Hacker News Board

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#261

Post by h02 » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 8:51 PM UTC

rhelz wrote: post #241

h02 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can't tell how good a programmer is by his resume, then....why the does everybody use resumes to try to do it??? I'm wondering at this point if you've ever hired for an engineering position before... Lots of assumptions here, but we don't use keyword filtering. > you'll filter out all geniuses who decided that 4 years at Amazon is enough for anybody and wants to make a move. Geniuses with 4 years of experien…

> lots of assumptions Well, I'm not a mindreader, so perhaps you are right. Can you at least help me clear up the bad assumptions, and tell me, if resume's are not giving you the information you need, why are you using resumes? > we don't use keyword filtering. If your policy is to reject anybody without nodejs experience, you are using keyword filtering. It is what it is man. > filter out more good ones. I have symp…

Resumes still filter out "bad" candidates. "Good" resumes just doesn't actually mean someone is good. Like I said, plenty of people with 20 years of experience who can't do something a junior developer can do easily.

I agree the system needs change but I don't have the answers for how to change it, hence why I said it's the million dollar question. Best we can do is try to make improvements.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#262

Post by VirusNewbie » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:05 PM UTC

rlawson wrote: post #202

edgyquant wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you believe radiologists somehow are more deserving than high level engineers?

Ha! I have a son who is a radiologist and what docs have to go through makes the worst sprint of your life look like a walk in the park. And they train that hard for years . Patients can die if he messes up. The worst thing when I mess up is the product is a few days late. I have been coding for 25 years, make half of what he does and he deserves every penny of the difference.

> The worst thing when I mess up is the product is a few days late.

I wrote code for the emergency broadcast system, as well as telecom code. Plenty of people could die if that code messed up.

Being a doctor has grueling training, but I think it's a very different skillset from a senior engineer at FAANG. The type of problem solving that is required for the latter is not really comparable. Remember, there's not even a cartel to keep comp artificially high. It's just that expensive if a senior (or higher) engineer fucks up at FAANG that spending an extra 100k to get the top 2% of talent vs the top 5% of talent is worth it to them.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#263

Post by rangestransform » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:16 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #52

So, as a 56yo who's been programming professionally since 2004, currently having trouble finding enough contract work, a bit of perspective: When there are more openings than qualified people, even when you reduce qualifications to what is actually necessary, it seems like there's "nobody" available. Now, when the shoe is on the other foot, it seems like "nobody" is hiring. It's harsh, but it also doesn't take that m…

> Meanwhile, boring old stuff like manufacturing was starved for programmers, and eventually gave up trying to get them.

If you wanted to be fully honest, you would have said that they couldn't pony up for programmers, they were only “starved” by their own penny pinching ways.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#264

Post by twojobsoneboss » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:27 PM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #146

light_hue_1 wrote: post #54

For the past year the most common topic whenever I go to any conference or meetup has always been that the economy sucks and that economists have no idea what they're talking about. I hardly know anyone under 65 who is particularly well; certainly not in comparison to even 2 years ago. Many people who used to be financially secure are in much more precarious situations now. It's not just anecdotal. I see it at a larg…

Maybe it’s your circle. Things are particularly bad for entry level devs right now, but I know a lot of people outside of tech, and the vast majority are employed and doing OK.

Keyword outside of tech - it’s well established that employment and wages is doing pretty well in large parts of the economy esp the trades, whereas it’s been the opposite in tech, and not just entry level either

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#265

Post by rhelz » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 9:58 PM UTC

h02 wrote: post #261

rhelz wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lots of assumptions Well, I'm not a mindreader, so perhaps you are right. Can you at least help me clear up the bad assumptions, and tell me, if resume's are not giving you the information you need, why are you using resumes? > we don't use keyword filtering. If your policy is to reject anybody without nodejs experience, you are using keyword filtering. It is what it is man. > filter out more good ones. I have symp…

Resumes still filter out "bad" candidates. "Good" resumes just doesn't actually mean someone is good. Like I said, plenty of people with 20 years of experience who can't do something a junior developer can do easily. I agree the system needs change but I don't have the answers for how to change it, hence why I said it's the million dollar question. Best we can do is try to make improvements.

I hate to only complain if I don't have any ideas on how to fix it, but just think of the absurdity of the situation we currently have: thousand of employers are frustrated because they can't find any programmers, and thousands of programers are frustrated because they can't find a job.

Getting a job is a core skill requirement for programmers, and finding programmers is a core skill requirement for companies. Its really hard to believe that this is the best we can do.

> Resumes still filter out "bad" candidates.

I really hate to try your patience, you've been a great conversation partner here. But I put it to you, all those thousand resumes did you absolutely no good. I mean, there's probably something I'm missing, because I don't know the particulars of your situation.

But from what you've said, all the effort and expense you put into screening those thousand resumes, and all the effort and expense put into interviewing them, did you no good. Expensive, time consuming...and ultimately yielding no value at all. I really hate to put it into such stark terms, but man, things gotta change. Even if you don't know how to do it, you've got to find somebody who does who can give you some good advice.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#266

Post by karmajunkie » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 10:25 PM UTC

rlawson wrote: post #202

edgyquant wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you believe radiologists somehow are more deserving than high level engineers?

Ha! I have a son who is a radiologist and what docs have to go through makes the worst sprint of your life look like a walk in the park. And they train that hard for years . Patients can die if he messes up. The worst thing when I mess up is the product is a few days late. I have been coding for 25 years, make half of what he does and he deserves every penny of the difference.

i used to write radiology software. i was just as capable of killing someone on a bad day!

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#267

Post by karmajunkie » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 10:30 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #215

dnissley wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200k is just 100/hr, no? Seems like there are many more than just a handful of companies willing to pay that rate

I know a lot of people who claim to make 200k+ as contract programmers doing vaguely web-related stuff. But as a tax guy, I generally see the actual financial data (i.e., the actual 1099-reportable payments), and I rarely see anyone who actually does make 200k+ as a contractor. And all of those positions are always niche positions, and almost all of these roles are for less than a year: meaning: the 200k is the amoun…

yeah when i was contracting i based my assumptions on half-time employment… so to make 200/yr, i would need to charge 200/hr. over five years that was pretty close to an accurate measure.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#268

Post by dazed_confused » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 10:56 PM UTC

seoulmetro wrote: post #145

bb88 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, as long as you're okay being terminated without warning. And we're expecting results quickly. Like within the first hour.

This made me laugh. Can't tell if it's a joke or not. Are you looking to hire robots or something?

I now understand why people were asking for so much up front…

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#269

Post by steve_adams_86 » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 10:59 PM UTC

rangestransform wrote: post #263

rossdavidh wrote: post #52

So, as a 56yo who's been programming professionally since 2004, currently having trouble finding enough contract work, a bit of perspective: When there are more openings than qualified people, even when you reduce qualifications to what is actually necessary, it seems like there's "nobody" available. Now, when the shoe is on the other foot, it seems like "nobody" is hiring. It's harsh, but it also doesn't take that m…

> Meanwhile, boring old stuff like manufacturing was starved for programmers, and eventually gave up trying to get them. If you wanted to be fully honest, you would have said that they couldn't pony up for programmers, they were only “starved” by their own penny pinching ways.

In many cases it could truly be that programmers aren't worth enough for them to pony up. It isn't that they're being cheap. It's that it doesn't make financial sense. There are plenty of contexts where programmers are useful but still only worth "normal" salaries.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#270

Post by maldev » Thu, Mar 14, 2024, 11:12 PM UTC

randomopining wrote: post #258

maldev wrote: post #187

I have ~11 yoe and have near 100% callback rate(50% for remote). All positions from 200-450. Friends have similar rates. And ~70% offer rates. Always confused reading these. But I'm also a low level developer, and only ask for ~250-3 salary/bonus. It feels like the people complaining are either really bad, have poor resume's, or have visa requirements. I tweaked my resume after not getting many callbacks and now have…

What tweaks gave you the most success?

I changed alot of it to action/result oriented. What did I achieve. I also added a section at the bottom of my paragraph with EVER buzzword I could find from about 10-20 relevant job postings to get past the filter. Usually has recruiters making a joke.