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For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

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Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#71

Post by jgwil2 »

snowpid wrote: post #69
Arc_Orion wrote: post #6

This makes sense. I have fairly good L2 German production, but I go from conversant to barely coherent when fatigued. My L1 English production diminishes, but not nearly as much. Likewise, my friends who speak English as an L2, even those who have spoken it with a strong command for over a decade, will struggle when very tired. Though we usually speak in English (her English is way better than my German), I've had a…

What is L1, L2 Proficiency?

L1 is first language, L2 is second, etc. Except for L1, which implies native proficiency, it doesn't say much about the level, just the order in which they are learned.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#72

Post by takinola »

I noticed an interesting phenomenon when I was learning my 3rd language. Whenever I was struggling to find a word in the newest language, I was more likely to confuse it with a word in my 2nd language than with my 1st. For some reason, my brain had assigned language #1 as "primary" and then all subsequent languages as "secondary" leading to sometimes substituting words from one to the other under duress.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#73

Post by [deleted] »

brabel wrote: post #7

If you learn any language as an adult, chances are you're never going to become as fluent as a native speaker, no matter how long you live in a second language environment. I say that as someone who has done it myself, and seen a lot of friends and family going through the same process. Children are a different story. They can learn a language and start speaking just like native speakers, local accent and all, within…

[deleted]

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#74

Post by snowpid »

jgwil2 wrote: post #71
snowpid wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is L1, L2 Proficiency?

L1 is first language, L2 is second, etc. Except for L1, which implies native proficiency, it doesn't say much about the level, just the order in which they are learned.

I think, the European A1, A2, B1.. is better way for descriping language proficency

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#75

Post by nh23423fefe »

dheera wrote: post #51
pcthrowaway wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(as a native English speaker who has spent some time in India) I have such a hard time thinking of numbers in terms of Lakh and Crore, I find even if I can remember the number of decimal places represented by each one, I almost have to visualize the number and move the commas in my mind to be able to make sense of them.

Chinese also splits numbers differently than English. In Chinese it's every 4 digits, instead of every 3 digits as in English. There is a word for 1e4 (萬), 1e5 is 10萬, 1e6 is 100萬, 1e7 is 1000萬, and there is a word again for 1e8 (億).

same for japan. ju hyaku sen man

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#76

Post by a_c_s »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #39
a_c_s wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult…

My children went to kindergarten (barnehage) in Norway when they were about three and a half and speaking English well. Well with a year they were indistinguishable from the native children.

Right, but the parent comment is comparing children to adults.

Even a native speaking 3.5 year old actually speaks a language very poorly compared to a native speaking adult.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#77

Post by a_c_s »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #18
a_c_s wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult…

Just a thought from someone who speaks English and a smattering of Spanish. If the child can correctly express the idea/intent they want and be understood then arguably they have learned that part of the language. Sure it might not sound how an adult would be likewise they probably don’t in their native language either right? I doubt anyone is saying that kids learn to speak the language perfectly but clearly there i…

I would actually argue that if a child and an adult spent the same amount of time engaged in language learning and were graded on the same metrics the adult would get farther. I don't think there's a magical cutoff where we suddenly can't learn languages anymore.

Rather, I think it is partly because we grade them on a curve that children are said to be amazing linguists

Children have many other advantages that also help them: * More free time * Fewer internal distractions (Did I lock the door? What am I making for dinner? etc.) * Not being afraid to make mistakes

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#78

Post by a_c_s »

brabel wrote: post #67
a_c_s wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult…

My example above was of a 5 year old. At that age, she already spoke her own language fluently so that anyone understood her well (of course, they still have a smaller vocabulary at this age as they haven't been able to talk about all sorts of topics yet). Do you think a normal 5yo normally still speaks blurry?? Or a 6yo? At this age, and even up to perhaps 12yo, as far as I can tell, they're able to absorb another l…

If a non-native English speaking 5 year old said "I goed to school today" people would say they are native level. (Even though they used the non-word "goed" as the past tense of "to go" instead of "went")

If a non-native English speaking 15 year old said "I goed to school today" people wouldn't say, "wow, they are a native speaker" nor would they say "wow, they are natively speaking like a 5-year-old" - they would say they still needed practice.

That's my point - speaking like a 5 year old as an adult wouldn't be considered native by anyone but a 5 year old. As you get older the standard is higher: speaking like a 10 year old is much harder than speaking like a 5 year old.

So for a 10 year old just learning a new language it may take longer than the 5 year old to get to their age level. That doesn't necessarily mean the 10 year old is worse at learning languages though since they have so much more to learn to be considered "native".

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