I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…
House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#912I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…
I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Our Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of…
I don't think the First Amendment would allow you to use a printing press built out of embargoed components, or arsenic compounds.
The ban isn't on speech. It's on the platform/product, how it's built and distrbuted, and (correctly or not) perceived ways it harms society.
You can have a short-form vertical video app focused on an algorithmic recommendation feed, and you can say whatever you want on that service. But it seems Washington doesn't want it to be sending data and money overseas to the PRC.
> The First Amendment protects pledging your allegiance to the Flag, just as it protects China saying "China is great, you should love us instead".
The US constitution gives foreign governments the same rights that it gives its own citizens?
…Okay. It actually may or may not give US citizens the "Right to Receive Foreign Speech", without conferring any rights onto the foreign entities themselves, but that's still very much an open question. Here's 50 pages (that I haven't read) on the matter, if you're into it:
https://digitalcommons.law.ou.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...
Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#913The idea that a piece of software can be “banned” on a national level shows how far we’ve fallen in terms of general purpose computing. In a reasonable world, banning an app would be a non-sequitur, because you would always be able to find a mirror if you wanted to use it. Once governments discover that they have this power, they will make every effort to close the PC loophole and subsequently ban anything unfavorabl…
Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#914Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like the twitter files weren’t sufficiently long enough ago to make this one sided argument. All governments have their hand in the cook jar.
The US government working with social media companies to censor Americans (and other people) on those platforms is also pretty bad, yes. My impression is that their influence is much weaker and more marginal than is the case with the CCP and tiktok, though. But I would be sympathetic to other countries banning US social media on the ground of US govt influence.
You know, the obvious explanation that doesn’t require an unseen CCP bogeyman.
Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#915Ignoring everything else TikTok screwed up. They’re m being accused of having the ability to manipulate public opinion and elections. So what did they do? Push alerts to millions of users telling them of a possible ban and helping them call their representatives to change a political issue’s fortunes. Oops. All of a sudden a ton of representatives who were on the fence jumped off and joined the bandwagon.
Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#916It is concerning that this bill seemingly includes a very specific carve out for Yelp[0] which is not owned by China, Russia, Iran or North Korea as far as I'm aware. Sure seems like the bill probably does more than just crackdown on TikTok. [0]: https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/17675409413787445...
Do you have a non-twitter link?
(B) EXCLUSION.—The term “covered company” does not include an entity that operates a website, desktop application, mobile application, or augmented or immersive technology application whose primary purpose is to allow users to post product reviews, business reviews, or travel information and reviews.
[0]: https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521...Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#917The idea that a piece of software can be “banned” on a national level shows how far we’ve fallen in terms of general purpose computing. In a reasonable world, banning an app would be a non-sequitur, because you would always be able to find a mirror if you wanted to use it. Once governments discover that they have this power, they will make every effort to close the PC loophole and subsequently ban anything unfavorabl…
So, you think it should be technically impossible to ban child pornography? There should be no consequences for possessing this in a "reasonable world"?
Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#918Just when I think I have a handle on how stupid our politicians are... they find some way to make me realize they are even dumber than I previously thought. According to HuffPost it was a 352-65 vote, so this stupidity was bipartisan. So much for one party being smarter than the other. Banning an extremely popular app, in an election year no less, while providing absolutely zero evidence to prove what you accuse it o…
I'm from Europe. Since China was supporting Russia to start a war on European soil. I sure hope that China's influence is reduced to a minimum as quickly as possible. Ofc, that includes propaganda through TikTok.
Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#919Earlier quoted context omitted.
We have laws against foreign ownership of broadcast TV and radio. Our legal system already acknowledges that foreign ownership of the media is a bad thing that should be prevented. The problem is that these laws haven't been updated for the modern era. TikTok is not covered. But this due to a failure of our politicians to respond to the modern era, not because the bill of rights enshrines or applies to foreign compan…
The law in the US is that you can't make radio transmissions on TV / AM / FM frequencies without a license, because left unchecked, everyone doing what they want would make radio useless for everyone. The government has a clear reason to require licenses, and they have the power to restrict who can receive one. The Internet doesn't work like that, though. No license is required to make a website or mobile app, becaus…
I'm not sure I communicated my point clearly though, because I agree that the old laws do not apply because they haven't been updated to work with the internet era. I do know how the internet works, though, and that you can get data from 'anywhere'.
Nobody would really care about the issue, though, if there weren't ways to make it more difficult to operate. Banning from the app stores doesn't prevent people from watching TikTok, but it makes it more difficult. They'll get fewer users if they need to side-load a native app or use a PWA, and a significant revenue dip from blocked advertising from PWA or browser views. This gives competitors an artificial advantage that network effects can solidify in time.
But the point I was trying to make is, the US should address their failure to keep legislation up-to-date with national security objectives, rather than single out a single company.
Rather than stick-up jobs on random international corporations, eg 'Sell to our country, OR ELSE', they should have created legislation with privacy laws that apply Congress' concerns to all companies, perhaps with stricter rules for international companies. A review process and penalties could result in forced removal from the app store. This could have _prevented_ TikTok's data collection by defining a clear line they're not allowed to cross. And if they still crossed the line, their app could be removed without it clearly being biased.
Now, the stated concern (privacy violations and data transferred to China) are likely not the only problem. We would have to update the old laws and go beyond simply checking for foreign ownership. The law would need to directly address the same issue that the old law was written for (potential abuse by a foreign entity). The privacy laws would need to be there. But we'd need to also build a process enabling review of algorithmic behavior and manual processes around censorship and propaganda, when companies reach a certain size or market reach. We'd need safeguards to prevent abuse of the law (which will happen, considering the tendency for all of our institutions to come under regulatory capture at some point).
Frankly, I'd prefer if algorithmic ranking system were forced to be opened to the public in a scenario where they gain sufficient audience to cause a significant impact on public discourse, as long as we're rewriting the laws. Some might cringe and cry 'Oh no, what about the intellectual property of that dozen or so megacorps!' And no doubt these companies would also incur expense fighting the gamification of their algorithms. That's just the cost of being so impactful, and it will drive innovation if they can't keep up. And it's the best way to ensure abuses are discovered if we put regulation of censorship and algorithmic abuse in the hands of government organizations.
Basically, we need a framework to systemically address these issues. Not repeated contentious multi-year congressional fights that are triggered on a case-by-case basis. The current haphazard approach _might_ succeed against an occasional bad actor, but it's going to let dozens more through.
All they're doing now is generating talking points during an election year. It's political theatre, not problem-solving.
Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app
#920I'm interested to see how this plays out. TikTok is popular enough that I can imagine it's making enough money outside the US to just let them ban it and not sell. The whole thing is interesting to watch from a non-China/US perspective. It feels like a move to make the US government look strong to its citizens. A move that, unusually, can have bipartisan support. It feels like propaganda really. And judging by the co…
I think you're underestimating how powerful social media and TikTok in particular is