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Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

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Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#151
post #73

The line about nix making it easier for newcomers in the readme and similar statements always trigger me. I am quite a competent person and I've never once thought "that was easy" when trying to use nix. I adore the concepts of nix, but the user experience is awful. Maybe that's what this tool solves? It takes a frustrating amount of effort and incessant config tweaking with little to no documentation and navigating…

I think once somebody solves the hellish configuration with another language that people can actually understand NixOs will take off. I mean, I hate js as much as everybody else, but I’d rather use that to configure nix than whatever that thing is that they use now.

There is garn a typescript frontend to the nix language. https://github.com/garnix-io/garn/

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#152
post #73

The line about nix making it easier for newcomers in the readme and similar statements always trigger me. I am quite a competent person and I've never once thought "that was easy" when trying to use nix. I adore the concepts of nix, but the user experience is awful. Maybe that's what this tool solves? It takes a frustrating amount of effort and incessant config tweaking with little to no documentation and navigating…

"Flox began its life during the deployment of Nix at the D. E. Shaw group, where it quickly proved invaluable by making Nix easier for newcomers". Is that the line you are referring to? Sounds like the opposite of what you suggests it says.

The line suggests the opposite yes. That's why I take issue with it.

There's nothing easy about nix. Maybe flox makes it easier, but I am so burned out by screwing around for countless hours with nix I'm not even going to try to figure out if it's true.

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#153
post #130

Last I tried to use Nix there was lots of confusion over flakes - some tutorials suggested using them and others saying they are still in development. Has the situation improved?

I believe so, it seems like almost all (or all?) solutions listed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39696038 use flakes underneath. I think the flakes problem come from two things: - flakes are labelled experimental for years now (I think it might be almost 5 years now) which creates confusion with new users, but they are universally used nearly everywhere now - there seems to be some bad blood[1] between ht…

DetSys founder here :). Firstly, congratulations to Flox on the launch.

DetSys is founded by Nix's inventor Eelco, and me -- a fairly long time community member (since ~2016.) We're also loaded with long term Nix users and contributors. We (the company) didn't invent flakes, and I didn't have anything to do with it either. While working at Tweag, Eelco worked with Target to develop the idea.

I'm not sure where this idea of bad blood or not contributing back comes from, either. The vast, vast majority of our code and products are completely FOSS, and our most popular product (the Determinate Nix Installer) is deliberately licensed in a way that upstream Nix can take it and integrate it however they want, any time they want. And I hope they do! We also invest heavily in contributions directly upstream. We're long time open source contributors and advocates, and that doesn't change now that we started a company.

I think there is a lot of compression of time and history here that has lead to lot of pretty baseless accusations and confusion. I think some people who don't like the change don't like it because they've built their own mechanisms to get what flakes provides. That's fine, nobody has to use flakes. The old ways aren't going away. Some folks don't like them because they're not technically perfect or bug-free. That's fine, too, but they're not becoming more stable by pretending flakes don't exist.

I look at threads like the one you linked as evidence we're doing something interesting. Nobody would care if what we were doing was useless.

One point that is absolutely true, though: DetSys is 100% contributed to the version of the future where Nix + Flakes is the thing. Flakes solve such vast problems that I feel there is no going back. This is the basis for the Determinate Nix Installer: we guarantee flake stability, and use the installer as the wedge to keep that promise with our users. This promise has been the basis of our work on FlakeHub and our just-launched-today FlakeHub Cache.

Unfortunately, nix.dev -- an official Nix documentation source -- specifically does not teach much about Flakes. To the degree of introducing documentation for unmaintained tools that see very low community adoption: https://nix.dev/guides/recipes/dependency-management.

We've taken a strong position on flakes by introducing our installer and zero-to-nix.com, a flake-first documentation source because of this confusion. I have asked numerous times for the various Nix leadership teams to make a choice on if flakes are the future or not, but as we can all plainly see: they have not chosen to do so. This confusion about flakes comes from the very top, unfortunately. I find this very motivating for building the best Nix company I can, to support the adoption of Nix and flakes in interesting places around the world.

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#154
How does it compare to the existing Devbox project (https://www.jetpack.io/devbox)?

Does Flox have an optional cloud solution as well? Can Flox install specific versions of Nix packages? What about OS-specific dependencies?

I've worked with tools like that for 5 years. Curious to understand what Flox brings to the table that we don't already have.

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#155

Huge user friendly! Even more than devenv which I’m currently using. One question: does Flox need Nix preinstalled? I don't see any mention of Nix in the installation guide. If Fkox doesn't need Nix install it would be a huge game changer.

`flox` needs Nix to function. So the rpm/dev/OSX installers first install Nix, and then installs flox itself.

If you have Nix already, you can try it out as described here: https://flox.dev/docs/install-flox/#install-with-existing-ni....

side-note: with further improvements to Nix as a library, it may be possible to make installing Nix not necessary for flox to function, but this is on a longer time horizon... don't hold your breath

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah! The modern hell of choice. Can’t these peeps just work together and make one great thing instead of fragmenting over and over? I think I know the answers but have to ask anyway, hope to learn.

That’s equivalent to demanding the Python community to abolish PyPI in favor of making the “one great” standard library. Nix is a language after all. It’s meant to have tools that build on it.

IMO it's a bit more like asking the python community to standardize all the tools listed in this stackoverflow question, which they only sort of succeeded in.

"What is the difference between venv, pyvenv, pyenv, virtualenv, virtualenvwrapper, pipenv, etc?"

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/41573587/what-is-the-dif...

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#157
post #73

The line about nix making it easier for newcomers in the readme and similar statements always trigger me. I am quite a competent person and I've never once thought "that was easy" when trying to use nix. I adore the concepts of nix, but the user experience is awful. Maybe that's what this tool solves? It takes a frustrating amount of effort and incessant config tweaking with little to no documentation and navigating…

I love nix and have contributed quite a few packages to the nix repository, and I will vouch that it’s anything but easy. I have a background in Haskell which makes it more familiar, but even the syntax is counterintuitive to newcomers.

This is my experience too. At scale, I find Nix to be really slow, and the remote building infrastructure over VPN to be very flakey (see what I did there?). But it does solve some tough problems, and also introduces some new ones. Nix is incredibly useful, and extremely frustrating at the same time. Also, disk space...

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#158

There are several tools in this space now- nix is maturing and people are realizing how useful nix can be for dev envs. * [devenv](devenv.sh) - I am using it and loving it, but worried that the development is not moving forward * [devbox](https://www.jetpack.io/devbox) * [daytona](https://www.daytona.io/docs/usage/workspaces/) * [devshell](https://github.com/numtide/devshell) * [bob.build](bob.build) more focused on…

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#159
post #73

The line about nix making it easier for newcomers in the readme and similar statements always trigger me. I am quite a competent person and I've never once thought "that was easy" when trying to use nix. I adore the concepts of nix, but the user experience is awful. Maybe that's what this tool solves? It takes a frustrating amount of effort and incessant config tweaking with little to no documentation and navigating…

I think once somebody solves the hellish configuration with another language that people can actually understand NixOs will take off. I mean, I hate js as much as everybody else, but I’d rather use that to configure nix than whatever that thing is that they use now.

The language isn't the problem, it's the structure (if you can call it that) of Nixpkgs that makes it so difficult. And no, flakes are not the answer, they may solve composability but they create other problems.

Re: Show HN: Flox 1.0 – Open-source dev env as code with Nix

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Flox began its life during the deployment of Nix at the D. E. Shaw group, where it quickly proved invaluable by making Nix easier for newcomers". Is that the line you are referring to? Sounds like the opposite of what you suggests it says.

The line suggests the opposite yes. That's why I take issue with it. There's nothing easy about nix. Maybe flox makes it easier, but I am so burned out by screwing around for countless hours with nix I'm not even going to try to figure out if it's true.

I'm confused here. That quote clearly says that Flox makes Nix easier for newcomers, not that Nix is easy. What exactly do you take issue with?
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