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Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

cnn.com

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Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#291

Post by sofixa »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #265
sofixa wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the final incident report[1] from BEA, you'll see that there was a hardware failure - the control yokes got desynchronised from one another which isn't supposed to happen, and the pilots were therefore unaware of conflicting inputs. Worst of all, Boeing doesn't warn in any way if that happens, because why would they? Airbuses (which don't have synchronised sticks) have "dual input" warnings audio and visu…

Ah, since I see the peanut gallery needs some education. the control yokes got desynchronised from one another which isn't supposed to happen No, that's precisely what's supposed to happen. Seriously. On an Airbus with sidesticks opposing inputs get you a dual input warning and have a button to lock out the other set of controls, and the computers just average the inputs. On a Boeing with yokes (e.g. the 777 in quest…

> The yokes are mechanically connected up until you apply enough force to break the connection. The feedback you get as a result serves as a warning

Considering that the feedback you get might be due to outside forces, having no clear indication that the yokes are desynchronised is an issue.

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#292

Post by bbor »

mym1990 wrote: post #286
bbor wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok cmon be nice it’s hacker news we all hate Boeing here - that’s why we’re Hackers :) Yeah it’s relative and the line between “large airliners” and “all passenger aircraft” is somewhat arbitrary, I agree. But I stand by the distinction. The market for large airliners is by far the most important market in aerospace, and it has two companies in it, and the one that’s been doing a decade of record cost cutting has way…

My point is more that: the engines are built by a different company, the tickets are sold by different companies, the airports are run by different companies. I am not making a distinction between large aircraft and medium aircraft, I am saying that Boeing is cog in a much larger wheel, and market dynamics dictate much more than meets the eye. As I mentioned, I am not on Boeing's side and the cost cutting is obviousl…

Fair enough, thanks for the tit-for-that :). I keep emailing Biden telling him to nationalize the company and put me in charge, but so far no luck…

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#293

Post by tim333 »

weaksauce wrote: post #162
tptacek wrote: post #76

If you watch The Aviation Herald, this kind of reporting feels a little like trying to write news stories off VAERS data. Crazy shit is happening more or less all the time in planes; the idea isn't that nothing ever goes wrong, but that layered controls prevent injuries or hull losses. It's not that there necessarily isn't a thru-line to these stories. And I read "Flying Blind" like everyone else and share the popula…

I think it's worth reporting on because this particular issue is known to everyone... you need to cycle the power on the planes every 3 days or else the reset themselves. it's crazy that a modern plane needs to have that happen but it does. the most likely situation is that the plane didn't get shutdown and happened to occur at a level flying situation and the pilots probably freaked out and overflew the plane which…

>pilots probably freaked out and overflew the plane

I've got a pilots license and shoving the stick forward such that you pull negative Gs and passengers get stuck on the roof is not a normal reaction to the instuments going out.

It sounds more like one of the computer systems crashed or lost power causing a lack of control until a backup kicked in, and caused the fly by wire to pitch downwards briefly.

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#294

Post by inferiorhuman »

sofixa wrote: post #291
inferiorhuman wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, since I see the peanut gallery needs some education. the control yokes got desynchronised from one another which isn't supposed to happen No, that's precisely what's supposed to happen. Seriously. On an Airbus with sidesticks opposing inputs get you a dual input warning and have a button to lock out the other set of controls, and the computers just average the inputs. On a Boeing with yokes (e.g. the 777 in quest…

> The yokes are mechanically connected up until you apply enough force to break the connection. The feedback you get as a result serves as a warning Considering that the feedback you get might be due to outside forces, having no clear indication that the yokes are desynchronised is an issue.

  no clear indication that the yokes are desynchronised
Wrong

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#295

Post by wlonkly »

ricktdotorg wrote: post #283
wlonkly wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny, I was also thinking about Mentour Pilot, both because of the whole discussion here, and because of the post upthread talking about clickbait. I love Mentour Pilot once I get into one of the videos, but looking at all the attention-grabbing (and clickbaity!) stills on his video list makes me have to force myself to remember that it's fine once the video starts.

if you're a Chrome user, consider installing the Clickbait Remover for Youtube extension: https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clickbait-remover-f... . or the add-on for Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/clickbait-rem... they both do the job well. i've not been mildly irked by clickbait-y thumbnails for ages! great for mental health.

Well, that's incredibly effective. Thanks!

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#296

Post by shiroiushi »

anticensor wrote: post #270
shiroiushi wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't do that: the pilot can't be allowed to control, or even know about MCAS, because that would affect Boeing's ability to claim the plane is "just another" 737 and that the pilots don't need retraining. Giving the pilot the ability to control MCAS means the pilots all need retraining.

They already received training on MCAS once they got 737 MAXes, albeit a short superficial one (1 hour of lecture&1 hour of simulator training iirc). Hence "cannot be allowed to know" does not apply anymore.

Yeah, and that's wrong. It should apply. Pilots should not be allowed to know, because that means this is a different plane than the one they were rated for. And so, since the plane can't be flown safely without proper training, the planes should not get the same type rating as the old 737, and either 1) they should just be demolished, or 2) they should be considered an entirely different plane, with all the training requirements that entails. The regulators completely failed here, and by allowing this are showing they're corrupt.

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#297

Post by ricardobeat »

spiderxxxx wrote: post #253
ricardobeat wrote: post #146

Aren’t turbulence / tailwinds / low pressure zone the only things that can cause a plane to suddenly lose lift and drop? I don’t think there’s any control input that can cause that, this story doesn’t seem to make sense.

Ice can do that too. And engine failure.

In those cases the plane doesn't suddenly drop though? You just lose speed and start gliding.

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#298

Post by AlexeyBelov »

DinaCoder98 wrote: post #167
whatshisface wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funniest thing is that Boeing is barely industry, with all the two-way regulatory ties and of course the monopoly, it's like a nationalized company that just happens to be nominally owned by investors. The only ideology that Boeing makes look bad is the Soviet system! :-)

Seems sort of like the opposite—a lot of the regulation is done by people installed by lobbying, sort of like a privately owned and operated part of government. Of course it's terrible for everyone but shareholders there isn't really any domestic competition.

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=DinaCoder99

Is this you as well? Is this even allowed?

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#299

Post by tptacek »

tptacek wrote: post #76

If you watch The Aviation Herald, this kind of reporting feels a little like trying to write news stories off VAERS data. Crazy shit is happening more or less all the time in planes; the idea isn't that nothing ever goes wrong, but that layered controls prevent injuries or hull losses. It's not that there necessarily isn't a thru-line to these stories. And I read "Flying Blind" like everyone else and share the popula…

The WSJ just ran a story suggesting that an FA accidentally hit a seat switch that pushed a pilot into the flight controls, which is what caused this incident --- a cause incompatible with most of the comments on this thread.

Re: Pilot of Boeing flight says he lost control after instrument failure

#300

Post by WalterBright »

WalterBright wrote: post #143

Or maybe the pilot made a mistake and is trying to save face by blaming the instruments. I suggest waiting for the investigation to figure out what went wrong. For example, he could have slipped while climbing out of the seat and fell against the control column.

Looks like I wasn't far off:

"Flight attendant hit a seat switch that pushed pilot into controls during flight to New Zealand, industry officials say"

https://www.wsj.com/business/airlines/cockpit-mishap-might-h...

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