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Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

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Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#81

Post by bdcravens »

mrcode007 wrote: post #65
pojzon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI changes the landscape alot. Even as an experienced engineer the sheer amount of knowledge you get access to from a single prompt without having to read any tutorial or book can change a Junior into Senior very quickly. I just hope it wont face the same issue google had: - starting with good answers and evolving into mud

It only works for established technologies. New inventions are by definition not in the training dataset. What then?

Unfortunately the majority of jobs aren’t really innovation roles.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#82

Post by sterlind »

panzagl wrote: post #50
77pt77 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. They get kicked out of the field. Like someone said, it's an open secret.

Depends on how you define 'the field'- if you mean SV cutting edge unicorn selling ad stuff, then yes. If you include some place like Lockheed Martin or Northrup Grumman doing boring non-cutting edge stuff like aerospace or signal analysis, then no.

so web apps are sexy and cutting edge, while sensor fusion is boring and stale? I'm not a defense contractor, but that take just seems wild.

most of SV isn't cutting-edge tech. most SV devs are generalists.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#84

Post by pjerem »

pojzon wrote: post #53
costanzaDynasty wrote: post #33

The jokes on them. The generations are getting smaller and smaller. The lack of junior roles is making that pool even smaller. A giant bubble is forming. They spent the last 5 years talking about diversity and how great it is and how it makes better teams. Now every job is 5+ YOE. Do as I say, not as I do tech.

AI changes the landscape alot. Even as an experienced engineer the sheer amount of knowledge you get access to from a single prompt without having to read any tutorial or book can change a Junior into Senior very quickly. I just hope it wont face the same issue google had: - starting with good answers and evolving into mud

For now, my feelings are that AI can be really helpful if you know the field. You need to be senior to know how to ask things and to understand the answers.

For anyone not understanding the domain, AI is just a glorified stack overflow but with hallucinations.

Hallucinations can be fought but you need to suggest that you got the wrong answer and why. And that requires a deep understanding of the domain.

Honestly I’m really frightened that we collectively accept that AI is an acceptable source of truth and that it’s ok to make decisions from its output or worse, use it as a learning material.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#85

Post by mech422 »

imbusy111 wrote: post #29

I did feel a disadvantage myself when I was job searching a few months ago, but for me it was my personal attitude coming through more than anyone judging me by my age. I felt that I just cannot get excited anymore about some of the bullshit the company leadership is throwing around, and neither could I overlook the massive mistakes the companies are making based on my own interview questions. But I do understand tha…

Yeah - I have 40+ yoe, and I could see a lot of places don't need a 'senior'.. they just need a couple more junior coders.

Also, you tend to get a bit jaded - I basically ignore companies that are going 'to change the world!!!' :-P

I broke my own rule and went to a startup that actually seems to have a useful product, rather then just big dreams...

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#86

Post by hinkley »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #73
WalterSear wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone else gets replaced by someone cheaper who still believes that sacrifices will be rewarded. That's the open secret.

I worked hard this last year. I got about 40k more than I was expecting in bonus/stock.

You should probably couch that in terms of % of base comp or you're going to get people's hopes a lot higher than is reasonable.

I don't think I saw substantially more than 10k in Seattle, or heard rumors of non-sales coworkers seeing much more than that. Inflation adjusted maybe twice that, still less than half of yours. But you might also make 3x what we made because goddamn are condos expensive down there.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#87

Post by smrtinsert »

pojzon wrote: post #53
costanzaDynasty wrote: post #33

The jokes on them. The generations are getting smaller and smaller. The lack of junior roles is making that pool even smaller. A giant bubble is forming. They spent the last 5 years talking about diversity and how great it is and how it makes better teams. Now every job is 5+ YOE. Do as I say, not as I do tech.

AI changes the landscape alot. Even as an experienced engineer the sheer amount of knowledge you get access to from a single prompt without having to read any tutorial or book can change a Junior into Senior very quickly. I just hope it wont face the same issue google had: - starting with good answers and evolving into mud

> can change a Junior into Senior very quickly

Not to derail the thread, but its really not that simple. People are subject to their own biases and knowledge gaps. Long form responses do not fix either of those issues though they might help with the latter. If it really upskilled everyone that cleanly its effect on roles would've happened by now. I've noticed a lot of people frankly do not have the natural "context length" needed to really take advantage of AI and there are those that are really benefitting from it, but they're in the smallest minority.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#88

Post by bdcravens »

slibhb wrote: post #11
nvy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any reputable research that shows people produce better-quality work in their 20s vs say, their 40s or 50s?

Virtually every genius is most productive before 40, usually before 30. Counterexamples exist but are rare.

Are we talking about geniuses, or your average developer using the state management library du jour?

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#89

Post by mech422 »

ttyprintk wrote: post #51
imbusy111 wrote: post #29

I did feel a disadvantage myself when I was job searching a few months ago, but for me it was my personal attitude coming through more than anyone judging me by my age. I felt that I just cannot get excited anymore about some of the bullshit the company leadership is throwing around, and neither could I overlook the massive mistakes the companies are making based on my own interview questions. But I do understand tha…

This. Interviewers and executives are often younger than me. I never make the claim that I’ve seen this or that mistake being made before. If I need to inject something, I say “anyone read [that book on JAX]” or “happy to help setup a long-term Kanban for Kubernetes if we go that way”.

Heh - most are younger then me as well ... I had an interviewer about 15 years younger then me ask "what was the most important thing I learned about DevOps"... my reply was "dont deploy on Friday" :-) I got the job (and a chuckle) :-D

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#90

Post by jghn »

imbusy111 wrote: post #29

I did feel a disadvantage myself when I was job searching a few months ago, but for me it was my personal attitude coming through more than anyone judging me by my age. I felt that I just cannot get excited anymore about some of the bullshit the company leadership is throwing around, and neither could I overlook the massive mistakes the companies are making based on my own interview questions. But I do understand tha…

I say this as a greybeard myself, but as someone who been on the interviewer/hiring manager side of quite a few interviews with older candidates, it's a lot more common than they realize that they're just *bad*. Yes, there are many good ones, and yes the wisdom they have is a huge benefit. But plenty of them think this applies to them when it does not.

The most common issue is they've long since let themselves go technically. They've been flexing the same 2 or 3 muscles for ages, and let everything else atrophy. They haven't been staying abreast of current changes, and by that I don't mean jumping on the latest fad but rather knowing that the fads exist. So it winds up being the case that they have few useful/transferable skills and their "wisdom" really isn't all that useful outside of the exact niche they'd found themselves in for decades.

And then another large chunk of them wind up being jerks. I've been this person myself. Whether it being standoffish, crapping over what the company is doing without a full understanding of why they're doing it, or even just clearly being defensive about ageism.

My point isn't to dump on older candidates. Again, I sometimes am one :) But as is often the case, plenty of older candidates refuse to look in the mirror.

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