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House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

nytimes.com

621–630 of 1001 posts

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the founders could account for international influence in the age of the Internet and smart phones. No one is asking for a great wall around the US. People are just asking that major influencers are not under the control of hostile governments.

Is international influence something that should be stopped? Like, I should check the citizenship of someone before I listen to their ideas? It just doesn't make sense to me. If someone tells me nonsense I can ignore the nonsense. It doesn't mean the government should smash their printing press. It's annoying when people in other countries rile up people to change how they vote, but ultimately, that's a problem with…

I'll try to weigh in. Democratic republics like the USA are heavily swayed by people, protests, etc. In the digital age, just-in-time censorship of social media like Facebook or Twitter have been extremely effective at preventing "good/bad" protests, and each government sets the rules for the social media in the country (read easy censorship). Additionally, there have been a number of international propaganda campaigns that were successful to disrupt regular elections in the USA recently. See evidence of certain protests getting huge right before and during the russo-ukrainian conflict and covid shutdowns. Tik tok the platform's users generally contribute and consume as a "community that generates content in good faith" (I use that definition loosely), but it is a arm of soft CCP power that could just-in-time promote something terrible (brainstorming here: cultivate civil-war-esque mindsets then trigger, convince the population to avoid polio vaccines, etc.) Elections are tumultuous enough without having each "town square" potentially weaponized by potentially hostile nations, so requiring that free press be free from foreign control (influence is okay under free speech) is what is being decided here.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you're missing that it's most likely unconstitutional, because it violates the First amendment. Also related, but somewhat separate, is just that people should have freedom to information.

That's not clear. Does the First Amendment protect non-U.S. persons' right to speak and publish?

No, but it protects Americans' right to receive speech. Americans have a right to hear the speech that is on Tik Tok.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#623

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

The issue is that China has banned facebook and google, etc. because they don't censor which is the law in China. If they decided to censor and follow the laws of China they would be allowed to operate there. Google tried to reenter the Chinese market but decided not to after an uproar from its own employees who didn't want to censor. Microsoft is allowed to provide hotmail and bing, etc. services there, because they decided to censor.

The problem is exactly what law has tiktok broken in the US? Is it simply that it's seen as a Chinese company, and therefore discrimination against a Chinese company or something else.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete fairly in their digital ecosystem, why the hell should we continue to grant Chinese firms unrestricted access to our market? Because we are the United States, and we are better than that. We are a society that promotes free trade, freedom of expression, and economic globalization to the ends of the earth. It's kind of our whole thing.

How many democratic governments have been overthrown with US assistance because it benefited oil or fruit companies?

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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels mostly right. Although, it may not make it past the senate, and it might not get signed if it goes by the president. Especially since he's campaigning on TikTok. What amazes me is how people's view in these threads are for a ban. For a counter point, the EFF thinks congress should not ban apps[0] [0] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/03/congress-should-give-u...

This seems like we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with the next thing that pops up (perhaps an even more nefarious or nebulously owned app). Why would we not create better data privacy laws and/or ban the sale/transfer of PII to enemy countries if that's the problem we're trying to solve?

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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#626

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

> If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete fairly in their digital ecosystem, why the hell should we continue to grant Chinese firms unrestricted access to our market? I understand what you're saying and I actually support the ban as tiktok can be used as a giant botnet at-will by Chinas government, but an eye for an eye doesn't end well and the US is supposed to be "free" so this part of the argument I…

> but an eye for an eye doesn't end well

This is the only thing that governs international relations. Look at visa reciprocity, trade agreements, etc. for examples.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#627
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tiktok isn't "some website", it is partially owned and controlled by the CCP, which influences what content gets shown to Americans. A majority of zoomers get most of their news and information primarily from this platform, which again is under the influence of a hostile foreign government. (TikTok also spies on US citizens for the CCP, but let's keep this restricted to the free speech argument about the ban). We act…

would the same argument apply to Fox News? If not, why not?

Fox News and MSNBC are propaganda for American political parties not foreign governments. They have a much stronger constitutional argument for 1st Amendment protection than Russia Today or China Central TV would.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#628
The weird thing to me is how little concern there is for sale of data by any social media company. Very intimate details about many Americans lives can easily be purchased by US adversaries. That’s reportedly the motivation for the bill but effectively it really only change who is profiting from the data by forcing a bargain price for a foreign company and directing the ongoing revenue to us company vs a Chinese company.

I suppose it would be easier to regulate a us based company should the rules around user data sale change but this bill alone effectively does nothing to advance the security principles the bill is sold on beside make it slightly more expensive for the Chinese government to use the data.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#629
The move escalates a showdown between Beijing and Washington over the control of technologies that could affect national security, free speech and the social media industry.

I will get beat up for this question but here goes. They are using the word "could". Does this mean there is no evidence of TikTok exfiltrating sensitive intelligence data to the CCP? The reason I ask is that if this were actually taking place there would be no need to vote on breaking up TikTok or even mention the US constitution. Such actions would immediately be an act of war or at very least trigger sanctions. So is the real purpose of this to mitigate war or to confine US communications to platforms that the US already has intercept and social manipulation capabilities on or something else beyond the reasons given in the article?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#630
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tiktok isn't "some website", it is partially owned and controlled by the CCP, which influences what content gets shown to Americans. A majority of zoomers get most of their news and information primarily from this platform, which again is under the influence of a hostile foreign government. (TikTok also spies on US citizens for the CCP, but let's keep this restricted to the free speech argument about the ban). We act…

I feel like the twitter files weren’t sufficiently long enough ago to make this one sided argument. All governments have their hand in the cook jar.

The US government working with social media companies to censor Americans (and other people) on those platforms is also pretty bad, yes. My impression is that their influence is much weaker and more marginal than is the case with the CCP and tiktok, though. But I would be sympathetic to other countries banning US social media on the ground of US govt influence.
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