House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app • Hacker News Board

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#611

Post by lumb63 » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:14 PM UTC

zachmu wrote: post #530

jrockway wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Our Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of…

Tiktok isn't "some website", it is partially owned and controlled by the CCP, which influences what content gets shown to Americans. A majority of zoomers get most of their news and information primarily from this platform, which again is under the influence of a hostile foreign government. (TikTok also spies on US citizens for the CCP, but let's keep this restricted to the free speech argument about the ban). We act…

If someone wants to subject themselves to CCP propaganda, why stop them? If they’re that lacking in critical thinking, then maybe they’re getting what they deserve. It’s not like anyone is forcing people to use TikTok.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#612

Post by SteveNuts » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:14 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #563

SteveNuts wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like we're just going to be playing whack-a-mole with the next thing that pops up (perhaps an even more nefarious or nebulously owned app). Why would we not create better data privacy laws and/or ban the sale/transfer of PII to enemy countries if that's the problem we're trying to solve?

Because that is not the really the whole problem we are trying to solve. At root of the TikTok problem is the fact that a nation like China is not playing on a level playing field in our Free Market. A free market works when all the participants are playing on a level playing field. TikTok is not because China as a country does not believe or follow free market principles. As such to further their national goals they…

To be honest, I still don't see the issue here. TikTok is tying into existing APIs that any app can also use. There is nothing special there other than the user's data may end up in the Chinese government's hands (but... again, TikTok isn't special there).

I think we really need to think about the problem we're trying to solve here carefully, because saying "you can't watch these types of videos because reasons" is the slippery slope of all slippery slopes.

ETA: I do agree that TikTok is probably a bad thing overall, realistically it could be used to subtly social engineer the entire US population by controlling the content people see. But I don't think just outright banning TikTok is the answer. But didn't Facebook also do the same thing in the election? What are the ramifications for something like Youtube which tailors your recommended videos based on your history (you watch one Joe Rogan clip and now it starts to show right wing/conspiracy videos).

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#613

Post by throwaway199956 » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:14 PM UTC

zachmu wrote: post #530

jrockway wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Our Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of…

Tiktok isn't "some website", it is partially owned and controlled by the CCP, which influences what content gets shown to Americans. A majority of zoomers get most of their news and information primarily from this platform, which again is under the influence of a hostile foreign government. (TikTok also spies on US citizens for the CCP, but let's keep this restricted to the free speech argument about the ban). We act…

Doesn't first ammendment protect even that. Propaganda of other countries are legal under first ammendment.

Why should we be a nanny state that should dictate which apps one can or cannot use on one's device.

Also even at the hight of cold war, Soviet Life magazine was published and disseminated widely in the US.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#614

Post by maybelsyrup » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:14 PM UTC

zachmu wrote: post #530

jrockway wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should "lowest common denominator" to oppressive regimes. Our Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." TikTok, at the end of the day, is just a kind of…

Tiktok isn't "some website", it is partially owned and controlled by the CCP, which influences what content gets shown to Americans. A majority of zoomers get most of their news and information primarily from this platform, which again is under the influence of a hostile foreign government. (TikTok also spies on US citizens for the CCP, but let's keep this restricted to the free speech argument about the ban). We act…

Buddy if some meaningful proportion of your population is finding foreign propaganda convincing, your problem isn’t foreign propaganda.

USA in terminal decline and, in typical fashion, it flatly refuses to look at itself and wonder why. American power elite has no one to blame but itself.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#615

Post by zachmu » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:15 PM UTC

squigz wrote: post #591

felixgallo wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

would the same argument apply to Fox News? If not, why not?

Of course not. He said "foreign countries". The propaganda outlets at home are harmless.

Whatever you think of our home-grown propaganda outlets, the US govt taking different approaches to foreign outlets should be uncontroversial. Unlike the CCP, US citizens have first amendment rights.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#616

Post by aprilthird2021 » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:15 PM UTC

scop wrote: post #104

To be clear, TikTok's main threat is persuasion and opinion manipulation. Data privacy is a nice thing to talk about, but pales in comparison to being able to influence what a huge portion of a foreign adversary population is watching. Edit to counter likely responses: this also applies directly to US social media and mainstream media and I have extremely dim views of both I can assure you :-)

But the US protects people's ability to influence others by protecting the freedom of expression

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#617

Post by dv_dt » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:15 PM UTC

RivieraKid wrote: post #545

segasaturn wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it worse for me to have Tiktok installed on my phone than Google Chrome or Facebook?

Because TikTok can be used as a weapon by China. Democracies have a weakness - enemies can influence the population and therefore the government. Russia does this quite effectively in my opinion (one example is Slovakia).

Social media of US owned companies was already used as a weapon and still is. Perhaps instead of this legislation we should clearly lay out the regulations that all social media companies need to adhere too.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#618

Post by aprilthird2021 » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:15 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #370

codedokode wrote: post #340

If US bans TikTok then other countries should ban US apps because they can be used for spying and manipulation of public opinion the same way. Either a country makes its own apps or it becomes a subject to foreign influence.

Other countries do ban US apps. For example, Twitter/X is banned in China, Iran, Russia, North Korea, and a few other countries.

Good to see the crowd we're joining then.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#619

Post by elefanten » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:16 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #504

codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

The word "reciprocity" cannot hide the fact that two wrongs doesn't make a right. We think it is wrong of China to censor Facebook and Twitter because that is what authoritarian regimes that don't give a shit about free speech do. For exactly the same reason it is wrong of the US to ban TikTok. And this bill has nothing to do with balancing international trade. It's stated purpose is to restrict China's ability to in…

You're muddling issues. China restricts free speech in all contexts, and also separately puts onerous requirements on or outright bans various kinds of foreign businesses.

If TikTok is banned for geopolitical reasons, reciprocity reasons or whatever you want to call it, that doesn't change anything about free speech in America. It's not the unrestricted speech that was deemed a problem with TikTok, but rather the specific geopolitical risk (or whatever).

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#620

Post by Miner49er » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:16 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #599

Miner49er wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banning TikTok is not impinging on free speech. People are still free to say whatever they want on so many (unrestricted) platforms. Yes, it does impinge free speech. It's not about being able to say things, it's about freedom to hear speech. The first amendment and freedom of speech also covers that, and there is speech on Tik Tok that is not available elsewhere.

As I said, they are not banning listening to the speech on Tik Tok videos. If someone makes a mirror of all TikTok videos and posts it on Peertube, it is totally fine to listen to it. They are banning one delivery mechanism. Not the content.

I don't think courts will see it that way, but if the ban happens I guess we'll see.