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The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

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Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#131
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not sure that's the case. "Here, however, is what was explosive: Dale and Krueger concluded that students, who were accepted into elite schools, but went to less selective institutions, earned salaries just as high as Ivy League grads. For instance, if a teenager gained entry to Harvard, but ended up attending Penn State, his or her salary prospects would be the same. In the pair's newest study, the findings are even…

Interesting, although the authors note a caveat: "As with the earlier study, there were some students who did fare better financially if they attended elite schools. The students who fell into this category were Latino, black, and low-income students, as well as those whose parents did not graduate from college." Its worth noting, though, that the Ivys provide much smoother entry into jobs in high finance than less s…

maximizing salary is exactly what the study looked it. the approximation of finance = top salary is less accurate than the data they used.

i'm not sure that's true either. remember the study is comparing people who could have entered an ivy but didn't with people who did get into an ivy. since state schools admit more people with lower rankings who's to say that the smooth entry in high finance is due to the degree? it could be the ability of the person who got accepted to the ivy that makes the difference.

it may be more difficult at first, but an terrible ivy educated quant isn't gonna stick around very long. and a good state school educated quant may take longer to get in but eventually get there anyways. which is what the study actually suggests.

this is odd in finance since the real measure of someone in that field is revenue generated. no one cares you went to podunk state if you outperform everyone else. i know someone who's absolutely brilliant with a math phd from a state school that is working as a quant now. now that he's in his career is gonna be determined by revenue generated, not the degree on his wall.

you can't really control for a financial job salary either. they're heavily based on bonuses and hence performance of the trader. if they are making bank it's likely related to the natural ability that got him into the ivy in the first place. which is the same level as those people who went to a state school that were followed in the study.

like most fields, the people at the top of finance make disproportionately more than those in the trenches, who are not rich by any reasonable definition. if you worm your way up in a traditional company/create a successful product the same imbalance in pay exists. but for finance, we judge salaries based on the top performers, where as for engineers we tend to think of the average.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#132

Mark Cuban writes: "As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper." So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that Mark Cuban d…

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

It's hard to overstate the value of a university education... Why are you so vehement? Never went to college?

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#133

There is no clear financial connection. The only way to make a strong financial connection is to imagine a default scenario; where thousands of students can't pay off their loans. There is little evidence for this as student loans tend to be cheaper then housing loans (It is impossible get 300K of student loans) and they tend to have nicer terms less ways to default. Perhaps whats happening is some kind of social sla…

I'm 27. Suburban lifestyle. Went to college. I'm thinking of my 15 or so closest friends. None of them have ever bought a house or a new car. I'm drawing my own conclusion that the economy is going continue to be depressed for a long time.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#134
post #59
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an older student attending my local community college, and I agree with you completely. I watch my classmates in Calculus and Physics courses struggle with algebra much more than the new material we are learning. High schools should focus on algebra and geometry for the majority of students.

From my perspective, you guys have it backwards. I was screwed in some of my college courses because I did not have enough calculus background, I only had algebra.

I feel screwed taking some online machine learning courses because I can barely do Linear Algebra.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#135
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today the same institutions provide education and certify skills. If nothing else, it's an obvious conflict of interests that's tolerated only because historically there was no other practical way around it. The war for talent and the online classes will soon disrupt that - you'll be able to give interviews/tests in a 2-day examination and get a paper saying what you really know (like SAT is for pupils). And when tha…

Certificates are fine for IT work, but they can't replace degrees for programmers. A degree at a good school shows that you're smart, not just knowledgeable.

Google seems to be able to figure out smart folks in 5-6 hours with pretty high accuracy.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#136
post #123
post #40

This is just absurd. Non-accredited, branded schools will provide better education for less money? Really? I assume he's referring to the growing for-profit college industry. Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universi…

> Yet for-profit colleges are actually the biggest culprits driving up the student debt. Students at for-profit colleges run up more debt, are more likely to drop out, and are more likely to end up under-employed than those at traditional universities. They're also the people that traditional universities don't admit for the most part. We can find a subset of students at traditional universities who are like the stud…

I think that's an excellent and important point. Certainly there is some sample bias going on: if you're qualified for college in the first place you are probably at a traditional college.

However, I think my original point remains relevant for two reasons:

First, the author of the article used rising aggregate debt as evidence that the traditional college system is broken beyond repair. But if a significant portion of that debt is being taken on by unqualified students attending for-profit colleges, then the growing debt could have absolutely nothing to do with traditional colleges (likely the reality is somewhere in the middle, but the author's "doom and gloom" outlook on traditional colleges seems a bit extreme to me).

Second, the author presented for-profit higher education as a replacement for traditional higher education. But the incentives faced by for-profit colleges seem every bit as broken as those he claimed are faced by traditional colleges.

If traditional college presidents have an incentive to grow their endowments and build grand edifices on the backs of their students, then for-profit college CEOs have an incentive to cut large dividend and bonus checks on the backs of their students. This just doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

It's hard to overstate the value of a university education... Why are you so vehement? Never went to college?

I have a 4 year degree and I think it's hard to understate its value. I wish I'd spent that 4 years doing different things... I almost certainly would have learned more (and the things I learned would have been more useful). And it wouldn't have cost $120k.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#138
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have found that a great many of the students have not mastered high school algebra. That's been my experience tutoring all of my younger siblings. I think that we'd be better served if all 4 years of high school were spent mastering basic algebra (with exceptions of course). A mastery of basic algebra will better prepare you for college than a cursory understanding of trig and calculus.

This assumes a few things. 1) Teaching something repetitively means the students will learn more the second time. 2) Basic algebra is all that's needed as a general background in math for all majors. 3) Everyone in high school is there to prep for college. Those are three massive assumptions. Your viewpoint is rather narrow minded when you consider all the possibilities.

>1) Teaching something repetitively means the students will learn more the second time.

Further clarification of my ideal system--Once students demonstrate a mastery of algebra they can move on. For some students this may never happen, but there is really no point in moving to higher math if you can't master algebra.

>Basic algebra is all that's needed as a general background in math for all majors.

Take my major as an example (Math at Georgia State). Precalc and Calculus are required (you can clep out of either if you want). You don't really need high school calculus or trig even as a math major. You'll get the higher math in college, and my argument is that you'll be better prepared for said college math with a mastery of algebra than you will with a basic knowledge of calculus and trig and algebra.

> Everyone in high school is there to prep for college.

For the vast majority of people, if you're not going to college trig and calculus aren't necessary.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#139

Mark Cuban writes: "As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper." So, I suppose I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that Mark Cuban d…

Fuck college. It's not the only way to learn, to meet people, or to show your expertise, capabilities and accomplishments anymore. We have this thing called the Internet now. Write a book. Put a PDF online. Record a video of yourself giving an intelligent speech or showing some useful talent. Put it on YouTube. Write software. Put on GitHub. Answer technical questions well on StackExchange (or whatever for your parti…

There are certainly people who have the self-motivation, drive to learn, and grade themselves accurately using self-teaching tools -- but I think you'll find those people are few and far between.

Also, most of the useful information I obtained in my degree was which resources are the best.

Re: The Coming Meltdown In College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Soon

#140
I agree with everything he wrote, except for the predicted outcome. With the housing crisis, there was a bubble that burst because the credit markets froze and suddenly nobody had access to capital. That is what caused home prices to collapse. It wasn't that people suddenly realized that homes weren't a good investment.

With college, most of the loans are guaranteed by the federal government. Some are issued by the federal government. If there is a bubble, the fallout will be with the American taxpayers and not the colleges. Politicians can't (and shouldn't) allow universities to go belly-up. Recently there has been a backlash against traditional colleges, and much of that criticism is well-deserved. But the reality is that the U.S. has the greatest higher education system in the world. It is probably our single greatest competitive advantage. Mark Cuban talks a good game, but where does he think scientific research and development takes place? I can assure you it isn't the University of Phoenix.

If student loan debt continues to accumulate at the pace it has been, then the power will shift from the government to the students. What happens if tens of thousands of college grads simply cannot pay their debts or choose not to? After all you can't pay back money you don't have, and it's not as if there are tangible assets for the government to take. It's like the saying goes- if you owe the bank $1,000, you've got a problem. If you owe the bank $1,000,000, they've got a problem. The government has to start limiting these loans and the problem will correct itself. People should never be enabled to buy things they can't afford. Much of the housing crisis was caused because the government wanted everybody to own a home, and now the student loan crisis is happening because the government wanted everyone to attend college. But not everybody can own a nice home, and not everybody can afford to attend a college with $40,000 tuition.

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