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The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

jmargolin.com

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Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#91

Always wondered how difficult it would be to hook up one of the old multicolor vector screens to an emulator and be able to play games like Star Wars and Asteroids in true vector presentation instead of a raster approximation. Going to guess the emulator would need a completely different rendering subsystem and the computer would need a custom video out to drive the vector monitor. Maybe without a good source of work…

Back in the early '00s there was such a device - the Zector ZVG. It was driven via parallel port and used a custom version of MAME.

I'm sure somebody in the VAC scene started work on a replacement after these ended production.

I had an ZVG and it was pretty good. But now I just play my Star Wars cockpit.

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#92
post #73
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motion blur is an area where impulse displays like CRTs still excel compared to sample-and-hold displays like LCD and OLED.

OLED can easily be implemented with black frame insertion. You could even do it yourself at from the GPU/software level given a sufficiently high refresh rate if the monitor units are still too stupid to provide it as a working option. I'm more worried about the terrible spectrum of light they emit as with seemingly all LED tech, and the viewing angle.

In theory yes. You’d need a sufficiently high refresh rate (1000 Hz or better I would guess) and corresponding brightness.

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#93
post #76
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know what you're talking about. LCDs were completely unusable until the mid 2000s, even then they were all 60Hz/75Hz with no black frame insertion, which made any animation what so ever, even text scrolling blurred to crap. It took me years to figure out that this was why I suddenly couldn't read any text scrolling on logs on terminals. Yes, CRTs, flicker, it's a feature, it prevents motion blur. You're mea…

> You don't know what you're talking about. I used CRT for years until 2024 and I've lost count of how many Dell Ultrasharp and Apple LCD screens I've owned. > LCDs were completely unusable until the mid 2000s We're talking about monitors today. 2024. I switched to LCD in the mid 2000's when they became usable. > Yes, CRTs, flicker, it's a feature, it prevents motion blur. You're meant to put them up to 85Hz or so an…

This discussion made me want to refresh my understanding of current Apple monitors and if they have anything to offer.

I looked at the Apple Studio Display glossy and matte versions at the Apple store. The matte version uses "nano coating" instead of whatever regular matte LCDs use, and is a $200 addon despite being inferior.

-1 The reflections of the glossy screen are far worse than what you get with most (all?) CRTs. This is standard with LCDs for some reason, they are just perfect mirrors that reflect even a T-shirt in a well lit room.

+1 The pixel density is superb as expected. The difference from average (~100PPI) monitors is night and day. I don't know why for the last 20 years ~100PPI has been standard. It's terrible. For some reason there are almost no monitors with high pixel density other than this Apple and some Dells.

-2 Contrary to the IPS hype of the last decade, the viewing angle is terrible. At a wide angle, (like if you are just standing anywhere near the desk and not bobbing your head down to the level of where it would be if you're sitting) the image is completely washed out. Sitting in front of the white screen at normal distance (a few feet back), the edges are grey. Just moving your head 10 degrees in any direction causes abrupt color / luminance shift on any content. This is exactly the same as all IPS monitors, from $2-$3000. Nothing unexpected here, unless you thought the $1500 price would magically fix this.

+1 I correct myself on one point in previous discussions: The glossy screen is not obscured by grids like with most other glossy LCDs. Normally, with a glossy LCD you still have a very fine grid of black on top of the image, said to be the transistors blocking a small portion of each pixel. Perhaps the high pixel density here alleviates that issue.

+0.5 The color gamut impresses with high saturation. The accuracy and real (as opposed to claimed) coverage, however was not tested. Setting the color gamut to "legacy" modes in the Apple OS menus, like BT. 709 (basically sRGB, as I didn't see an "sRGB" option) made the image too dark and washed out, worse than what you'd get with a standard sRGB IPS LCD as well as disabled the brightness setting for some made up reason.

-1 The input lag was abysmal, as bad as TVs. Which could be due to the fact that the store only has wireless Apple mice, but could also be the monitor itself or the OS or many other things. I tested 4 Apples each hooked up to one of these monitors. Out of 75 monitors I have tested in recent years, only a few (such as the Dell 2407WFP, Dell 2048WFP, and NEC LCD2070NX) come anywhere close to as laggy as this. The lag is too high for even desktop use. For reference it's twice as bad as if you played a video game on 60Hz with vsync. Since the monitor has GBs of RAM I'm leaning toward the lag being from it and not the wireless mouse.

-1 It only does 60Hz which is terrible because that causes intense motion blur. Just scrolling in a web browser drops the resolution below 640x480 and increases the blur above even the cheapest oldest CRT from the 80s.

0 The "nano coating" is worse than average LCD matte coatings. With nano coating, all of the above results were the same, except the image is obscured by what looks like rainbow colored sand, that shifts color when you move your head, just like Dell 2408WFP or Dell 2007FP, from ~2007, or later VA crap from 2012 by BenQ. The grains of sand are finer than those older monitors, but still unignorably visible at normal distance (a few feet back) on a screen of one color or white or some pale color. The glossy version is better (and $200 less).

-1 For a monitor it has terrible unwanted features like built in ultra high res webcam, microphone built in chips which are allegedly just copied from a phone, reportedly with 64GB RAM but "only 2GB is used at any given moment" (whatever that means). Absolute nightmare for security, hopefully you could just mod the monitor and make it take a signal straight to the panel without any of the massive and pointless chips and hidden OS in between. I review only based on image quality but this is too much of an atrocity to ignore, even paying $1500 for hardly anything is not nearly as bad as this.

Rating: 5/10, OLED is better and the poor image quality is not worth the pixel density increase. You're basically getting a premium calculator screen. You're better of just getting a 3840x2160 27" OLED which is 160PPI, a small decrease from 218PPI of the Apple Studio Display. LCD remains a dead end tech, no matter how much premium and "engineering" you add to it. High end CRT is still vastly superior to this, and were half the price, they are slightly blurry but they have superior contrast, no viewing angle issues, no lag, and no motion blur which makes them sharper any time you view a moving image (yep I'm aware that you people don't understand this).

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#94
post #92
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OLED can easily be implemented with black frame insertion. You could even do it yourself at from the GPU/software level given a sufficiently high refresh rate if the monitor units are still too stupid to provide it as a working option. I'm more worried about the terrible spectrum of light they emit as with seemingly all LED tech, and the viewing angle.

In theory yes. You’d need a sufficiently high refresh rate (1000 Hz or better I would guess) and corresponding brightness.

What are you even talking about, an OLED running at 100Hz with BFI already would have zero motion blur. I'm not sure whether or not that's implemented yet but it's just a matter of time before the shitshow of monitor vendors figures that out.

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#95
post #94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory yes. You’d need a sufficiently high refresh rate (1000 Hz or better I would guess) and corresponding brightness.

What are you even talking about, an OLED running at 100Hz with BFI already would have zero motion blur. I'm not sure whether or not that's implemented yet but it's just a matter of time before the shitshow of monitor vendors figures that out.

You need shorter pulses than 10 or 5 milliseconds to reduce motion blur down to the level of CRTs. 100 Hz would only be sufficient if the BF takes up > 90% of the time, instead of the usual 50%. What causes motion blur is the frame being held for a period of time. BFI merely reduces that time by half. On CRTs, each pixel is only held for 100 microseconds or so.

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#96
post #95
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you even talking about, an OLED running at 100Hz with BFI already would have zero motion blur. I'm not sure whether or not that's implemented yet but it's just a matter of time before the shitshow of monitor vendors figures that out.

You need shorter pulses than 10 or 5 milliseconds to reduce motion blur down to the level of CRTs. 100 Hz would only be sufficient if the BF takes up > 90% of the time, instead of the usual 50%. What causes motion blur is the frame being held for a period of time. BFI merely reduces that time by half. On CRTs, each pixel is only held for 100 microseconds or so.

Hmm, I haven't thought this far into it, what matters is probably how long the persistence of vision of the human is.

For the LG CX OLED (https://tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/lg_cx_oled) (oddly one of the only OLEDs that have BFI) we can see they have no problem pulsing the pixels on on for only 3-4ms (https://tftcentral.co.uk/images/lg_cx_oled/bfi_120_high.png) (5ms divisions), resulting in these images (which I can't tell how representative of a human are because I don't know if the camera exposure matches human vision and the camera is probably wobbling at such high speeds, adding more blur than a human would see which is why these pursuit camera pictures are always blurry to hell - IIRC all those LCDs from the last 6 years with half working BFI aren't actually blurry, they are just buggily implemented so they have the top of the screen and/or bottom showing double images, each image is crisp, just doubled):

https://www.tftcentral.co.uk/images/lg_cx_oled/pursuit_120hz...

https://tftcentral.co.uk/images/lg_cx_oled/pursuit_60hz.jpg

If you just take a 240Hz OLED and blank 3/4 frames to get back a 60Hz image I'd be half surprised if that actually looks blurrier than a CRT.

EDIT: yup, just tested one of my garbage LCDs even on 75Hz with BFI enabled in the monitor menu, the image is perfectly crisp, just there are artifacts everywhere, mainly double images. That wouldn't happen with OLED with BFI (with BFI in the hardware/firmware obviously to minimize the on time beyond just dividing the frame rate).

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#97
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sales pitch was that "HD" was all anyone was supposed to care about. What we got in exchange for HD and some extra desk space was terrible color accuracy, worse contrast and grey blacks, low refresh rates, high latency/input lag, motion blur, dead/stuck pixels, poor viewing angles, fixed resolutions, backlight bleed, and DRM. We also lost the degauss button. Kids today will never know how fun that was. Some of th…

I remember the constant eye strain from years of CRT monitor use. Blurry and flickery pieces of shit. I dumped mine in the trash and never looked back. Good riddance. > it'd be nice if in 2024 we had screens at least as capable as what we had several decades ago You don't know what you're talking about. Try using a high end LCD that was manufactured in the past 10 years. The screens today are way better than the shit…

Please edit swipes (like "You don't know what you're talking about") out of your comments here.

This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#98
post #75
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the constant eye strain from years of CRT monitor use. Blurry and flickery pieces of shit. I dumped mine in the trash and never looked back. Good riddance. > it'd be nice if in 2024 we had screens at least as capable as what we had several decades ago You don't know what you're talking about. Try using a high end LCD that was manufactured in the past 10 years. The screens today are way better than the shit…

You don't know what you're talking about. LCDs were completely unusable until the mid 2000s, even then they were all 60Hz/75Hz with no black frame insertion, which made any animation what so ever, even text scrolling blurred to crap. It took me years to figure out that this was why I suddenly couldn't read any text scrolling on logs on terminals. Yes, CRTs, flicker, it's a feature, it prevents motion blur. You're mea…

Please edit swipes (like "You don't know what you're talking about") out of your comments here. I realize the GP did it first, but that doesn't make it ok to break the guidelines yourself.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#99
post #83
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When 85Hz CRTs were expensive, so were LCDs. CRTs were basically free by the time LCDs became remotely usable. There was basically no reason to ever buy an LCD until way after 2010. Everyone here who thinks otherwise has some dumb embarrassing reason like they thought they could finally get laid if they made their desk less cluttered. > And the flicker would still be crap even at 85 Hz. Oh yes, I'm sure, and you are…

[flagged]

Whoa - I don't mean to pile on but you broke the site guidelines egregiously here. We have to ban accounts that post like this, regardless of how wrong other commenters are or you feel they are, so please don't post like this again.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Edit: fortunately it doesn't look like your account has been making a habit of this, so it should be easy to fix.

Re: The Secret Life of XY Monitors (2001)

#100
post #97
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the constant eye strain from years of CRT monitor use. Blurry and flickery pieces of shit. I dumped mine in the trash and never looked back. Good riddance. > it'd be nice if in 2024 we had screens at least as capable as what we had several decades ago You don't know what you're talking about. Try using a high end LCD that was manufactured in the past 10 years. The screens today are way better than the shit…

Please edit swipes (like "You don't know what you're talking about") out of your comments here. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

OK, will do, but of course it's too late to edit this one now.
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