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Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

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Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#311

The article mentions the cosmic distance ladder, which is one of my favorite things in all of science. How do we know how far away the really far stuff is? It's non-trivial and I find the history fascinating. It all started with knowing the distance from the earth to the sun. Nobody had a clue until Richer and Cassini got within 10% in 1672. Then we nailed it down in 1769 with James Cook's voyage to Tahiti, the prima…

> Nobody had a clue In the 3rd century BC, Aristarchus calculated that the Sun was between 18 and 20 times farther away from the Earth than the Moon, and proposed the Heliocentric model as a result. The true value is instead approximately 400 times. But it's incredible given that he didn't have lenses, the value of Pi, and that the Geocentric model was considered correct until 1800 years after his death. https://en.w…

Can we call it an estimation if it's a range (18 to 20 times further than the Moon) and yet it is incorrect?

If he said "between 2 and 1'000'000 times farther than Moon", it would be very imprecise, but not incorrect. If he said "20 times farther" - it would be an extremely inaccurate estimate.

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we have to put everyone who dares to imagine down about it? I see value in sharing a wild idea purely for the inspiration it may give others to think about things from a unique perspective. A lot of great science started as a strange idea.

What's the value in """daring to imagine""" about cosmology? This is nothing more than reality based fan fiction. >A lot of great science started as a strange idea. Disagree. A lot of great science started with "This weird math I'm doing is the only way to fit this data", which is an extremely different thing. Do you not think physicists and cosmologists and their nerdy friends have thought of wild ideas? Do you not…

Thank you. It's good to know I'm not the only one who feels disrespected from people on the sidelines who clearly never opened a cosmology textbook.

It's one thing to ask curious questions, but "why don't you just do the thing that was ruled out 100 years ago" and expecting a detailed rebuttal is a bit rich. It's like asking "why don't they cure cancer by cutting it out of the body". Or "why don't you just apply basic set theory to P=NP".

It's always the same on these HN threads about cosmology. Even worse with dark matter, probably because you can understand rotating curves with high school physics. No one ever invents or roots for fringe theories on baryonic acoustic oscillations in the angular power spectrum of the cosmic microwave background.

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#313
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would a hypothetical dark energy engine look like?

two black holes in highly elliptical orbit, so they they nearly collide when they come together. at the center of mass is a cloud of iron atoms. When the black holes nearly collide tidal forces across iron nuclei rip them apart. These ripped apart atoms can then be re-harvested and used as fuel in a fusion engine. The energy loss from ripping the atoms apart is then recovered by the black holes by taking advantage of…

I could definitely be wrong, but I don't see how dark energy would enter this scenario. DE doesn't seem to play a role in gravitationally bound systems like two black holes orbiting each other.

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#314
post #271
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment! Maybe you can help me with a book recommendation? I was recently looking for a book which was basically your comment, but more in depth and covered the last couple thousand years. I wanted a to read about the history of astronomy - yknow, what was the state of the art in, say, 1350 or whatever. If you know of anything, I’d be super interested!

You might like "Coming of Age in the Milky Way".

This looks perfect, thank you!

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#315
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Sure, maybe a better number to give is "somewhere around 20", but it's difficult to tell how the "true number" could be over 100 or even 50.

Explanation needed. How can you, a primitive ape on a tiny remote planet with an average lifespan of 80 years (not meant as an insult, I am too), be sure about what happened 15, 20 or 100 BILLION years ago? I think this is what parent meant with: "people of every time thought they had (almost) complete understanding of the universe." - "Don't think it'll be different this time."

We can literally see into the past 13 billion years ago by building space crafts that collect microwave radiation, because we aren't as primitive as you may want us to believe.

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#316
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just an interpretation No, it's not, it's our best current model's description of the actual physical reality of our universe. > nobody can prove than a model is correct That's true, but it's also true that we can show models to be incorrect , as in, falsified by the data. For example: > Photon will hit something, or will travel until it will be redshifted to obvilion, or will travel until end of the medium Fo…

> No, it's not, it's our best current model's description of the actual physical reality of our universe. OK, it's our best model, but it doesn't invalidate other models, less complete or less popular, it compete with them. > That's true, but it's also true that we can show models to be incorrect, as in, falsified by the data. Yep. The article is about the Huble Tension, which invalidates Big Bang model. We still use…

> it doesn't invalidate other models

One model can't invalidate other models. Only data can invalidate a model.

What other models do you have in mind?

> the Huble Tension, which invalidates Big Bang model

No, it doesn't. It means we have more work to do, to figure out why two calculations of the Hubble constant, by different routes, give different answers.

Invalidating the Big Bang model would be finding evidence that there was no Big Bang at all. The Hubble tension is nothing of the sort.

> The Big Bang model is incomplete too: galaxies with FTL speeds, different speeds of expansion, no center of bang, no flows, no source of energy, it stretches time and space, etc.

None of these are issues at all. The model accounts for them all in a perfectly self-consistent fashion.

Also, your nomenclature is biased: for example, the "FTL speeds" you refer to are coordinate speeds, which have no physical meaning. "FTL" in General Relativity means "moving outside the light cones", and that does not happen.

> The right-hand rule in EM suggests that we are in north hemisphere of something

The right-hand rule is a human convention. It tells us nothing about physics.

> You are mixing model and reality.

No, you are incorrectly assuming that the word "field" can only refer to the model. That's not the case. Physicists commonly use the word "field" to refer to both the mathematical object in the model and the actual physical thing that is being modeled. Light is "waves of the electromagnetic field" in the latter sense.

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#317
post #23

[flagged]

Almost all claims any serious scientist makes concern the observable universe. Also, these are very smart people. You'd be surprised what we can work out with a few very reasonable assumptions and the observations we made. The dismissiveness really isn't warranted.

> Almost all claims any serious scientist makes concern the observable universe.

One last thought on this.. I understand these sorts of understood meanings work fine when speaking with professional peers, as they'd understand the assumption. But if you continue to do this when speaking to people outside your field, you will not be saying what you mean to say and will be teaching people incorrect ideas.

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you; you can't build up a perfect blackbody spectrum by superposing different near-blackbody spectra, and that led to the cosmological thermalization problem. Furthermore, baryonic intergalactic dust isn't like dark matter: we see redshifted spectral features of components of such dusts imprinted on all sorts of backgrounds from quasars to the CMB. The dusts tend to be greybodies. (I'm ignoring the warm-…

I am not a physicist, but iirc the idea of the alternative explanation of the CMB is that if you time evolve backwards intergalactic dust over expansion, you reach a point where the dust gets really dense and effectively opaque. So this isn't summing all of the dust you go through, but rather the redshift all the way back to an era when the universe was super dusty (with the expected thermal signature of that era)

Maybe you can dig up a reference, because you're on the verge of telling the conventional cosmology in a time-reversed way.

Under time reversal eventually the very first stars disintegrate into mostly atomic hydrogen, which compresses and heats adiabatically. Eventually it becomes hot enough that the hydrogen ionizes. Ignoring processes which alter photon number, the hot nuclei and electrons form a dense fog.

As with a fog here on earth, where incoming light can get bounced in a random direction off a fog droplet ("Mie scattering"), photons scattering off these hot charged particles are scattered in a random direction ("Compton scattering" at high energies, "Thomson scattering" at low energies). When we densify the fog, the free-streaming length of light decreases, increasing the fog's opacity.

Under the normal direction of time, therefore, the CMB is when de-ionization enormously shrinks the analogue of the fog droplet size ("Thomson cross-section"), and expansion increases the distance between the fog droplet analogues. The free-streaming length can become effectively infinite, like clear night air after a fog dissipates. The spectrum of the light at that point encodes the effective temperature of the scattering medium. In an expanding universe, that spectrum will lose energy (i.e., redshift).

The electrically neutral mostly-hydrogen then takes three principal forms: collapsing clouds of gas, which eventually form the first low-metallicity stars; cold dusts of neutral atoms at various sparser densities; and a warm-to-hot sparse intergalactic medium. The latter two is where we should find the so-called "missing baryons", the large fraction of atoms not found in stars and galaxies.

Backlighting by active galactic nuclei and UV-hot stars ruins the idea that a microwave-bright diffuse dust of electrically neutral atoms or molecules could generate the CMB with its spectral features. You'd have to keep the stars from heating the dust elements, while keeping the dust dense enough to generate the CMB photon-density. How do you preserve that density during expansion?

At the top of the thread you said "the primary proponent of this theory is trying to justify some sort of cyclic model", which doesn't escape this point. (It also didn't lead me to a reference).

However, if instead whoever you are struggling to remember is the proponent of an eternal and static cosmology -- with no expansion, ever -- some of these problems with the idea that the CMB can be the product of cold dust could be overcome. The idea might be that we still have a speed of light lookback, with more distant galaxies being older. The older galaxies being redder could be some sort of dust that is very thick in the distant past, thick enough to completely shroud whole galaxies like a lampshade, turning hot thermal Planck spectra into cold thermal Planck spectra. Then you have to (a) get rid of the dust over time without sending more or hotter photons in our direction, and (b) add spectral features to the cold thermal Planck spectra before it gets to us. I don't see how either could be done without very different atomic and/or gravitational physics than we have in our solar system. Adding in supernovae -- whose light-curves we see redshifted as per the article at the top -- makes this idea even harder, because then you need a lampshade-dust that down-converts photon energies in even more ways.

I'm not aware of any published or even serious attempt to do this, although I didn't look too deeply into the literature beyond confirming that this wasn't something proposed by Jayant Narlikar.

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#319
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How remarkably unsatisfactory. The argument being: You can't propose physics ever changed, that'd mean energy could have been created at some point! Energy was created at some point, wouldn't it be nice to know when? Everything created at the Big Bang exactly as it is now, stop asking questions.

You're asking to go too far back in time. The difficulty is we don't know what happened in the first planck second after the big bang, let alone before the big bang (if that's meaningful). We haven't unified quantum mechanics and relativity. Hence we can't be certain that singularities exist, or that the universe started off in a singularity.

I'm aware. What I'm saying is if that's how much you don't know, you'd better not make any claims like "X can't be accurate because it doesn't match what I think I do know".

Re: Webb and Hubble confirm Universe's expansion rate

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

`This talk about the "rate of execution" doesn't make any sense to me. A cycle takes one cycle, and always has.` The root of the question is whether there exists an external "system clock", and what that would even mean.

> whether there exists an external "system clock" I'll ignore your analogy with a CPU, which I don't think is apposite. Whether there's a 'system clock', a sort of reference clock that can tell you how fast time is passing, so you can calibrate other clocks against it, seems to be the same category error. As far as I can see, either time is all there, all at once; or one second lasts exactly one second. (I've perpetr…

You're certainly welcome to completely ignore the question at hand, it's just surprising that you'd use so many characters to do so.

The question is if there's a different sort of thing beyond our idea of time. We have our concept of N caesium oscillations is the base reference for everything, and the duration of all action is derived from it. Could there be more depth to the rate at which things occur than that, especially on cosmic scales? Could other processes, which operate at different base clock levels, be interacting with the universe we observe in ways we don't yet understand? Could those processes have clock levels that vary over history with respect to our caesium definition?

You can claim not, that's its precisely that shallow. But neither of us can provide evidence either way, and your belief is simply much less interesting to me.

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