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Among the A.I. doomsayers

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Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why would it become this?

Because, as unlikely as it is, if we're discussing risk scenarios for AI getting out of hand. Well then a monolithic superintelligence is just one of the possibilities. What about a swarm of dumb AIs that are nonetheless capable of reasoning and decision making and they become a threat? That's pretty much what we did. There's no super intelligent monkey in charge. As much as some have tried to pretend, material or ot…

The difference is that we have 100% complete control of these AIs. We can just go into the power grid substation next to the data center and throw the big breaker, and the AI ceases to exist.

When humans developed, we did not displace an external entity that had created us and that had complete power to kill us all in an instant.

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#292
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, reminds me of the "beginner's luck" fallacy: all long term gamblers remember winning their first few games. We can't use this to our advantage, because the people who didn't win, didn't become long term gamblers. I think a better argument would be the size of the set of regular users vs. some grounded guesstimate for how many have tried it.

Or the losers fallacy. Seems like entrepreneurship is a good example of the losers fallacy. The path to winning is through losing a lot first. So most people never persist long enough to succeed. I would say for AI deniers it's the losers fallacy. You guys haven't taken the time to thoroughly examine chatGPT4. You just stop at the first hallucination. It's a paradigm shifting AI. Detractors like you just rely on comm…

> Detractors like you

Ah, been a while since someone pigeon-holed me like that. Usually it's the opposite pigeon hole I get stuffed into.

Ironically, that kind of rapid but inaccurate misreading is one of the things that makes LLMs somewhat easier to deal with than a human: with an LLM, I can backtrack, edit my past words, and get a different answer. One cannot generally do that with a human, as it's a rare trait indeed for someone to be able to hear "you misunderstood, not x, y" and actually take that on board. Even on this site, I've been in threads of:

--

>>>>>>> x

>>>>>> y is dumb, you're dumb

>>>>> sorry you misunderstood, I'm not saying y, I'm saying x

>>>> I just told you y is dumb, you're dumb

>>> no, you're still not getting me, I'm not saying y, I'm saying x

>> stfu noob, I'm a professional: y is dumb, you're dumb

> I'd agree y is dumb, but I'm saying x

stop moving the goalposts!

--

(In this case, x was "it seems implausible that the Saudi Public Investment Fund would really last forever, forever is a long time and there's a always going to be a temptation for the people in charge to extract short term value to the detriment of long term potential", and y was (I think from context but I couldn't read their mind) "they're making bad decisions and will go under imminently".

> I asked chatGPT to program me a complex GUI in Python about selecting multiple time segments out of an overall interval using sliders. It gave me working python code.

Cute. I used it to write a web GUI for its own API, so I can have GPT-4 access as PAYG without a monthly subscription: https://github.com/BenWheatley/YetAnotherChatUI

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#293

Always all-or-nothing thinking from these folks. Like what they are working on can never be just another boring thing that nerds find entertaining. No, it has to be "world-changing". Gonna "change the world" (for the better or the worse?) while sitting behind a keyboard. Except they do not know how to write. Overlook the important details and exaggerate, communicating in hyperbolic, know-it-all nerd gibberish. (Grant…

IMO we underestimate the psychological implications of wealth in modern society. I suspect even if a power ball lottery winner takes a philosophical position it would be taken far more seriously than if they had never won the lottery. At some point you start to believe your own bullshit when all of society signals are telling you what a genius you are.

Being rich brings power not intelligence, unfortunately.

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#294
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of assumptions going on here. One of them is that superintelligent AI will arise. We have no reason to believe this will happen in our lifetimes. I posit that we are about as close to superintelligent AI as James Watt was to nuclear fusion. The other assumption is that wealth and power are distributed according to intelligence. This is obviously false, wealth and power are largely distributed accordin…

The higher the IQ, the higher the income: https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2023/02/there-is-no-iq-threshol...

Or higher income leads to higher IQs because of better education, nutrition and opportunities.

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to fantasize about a super AI that does something for the working class people of the world. Like, imagine one day that an AI just took money from a ton of different corporations and billionaires and redistributed it amongst everyone else. People will argue against the AI, and it'll just respond back with research done on how UBI improved people's mental health and well being. One can dream!

AI is meant to be clever, AI will not do such stupid thing. Free money given to people who just spend it on unnecessary stuff will only cause more inflation. and the money will return the big corp anyway, just like it did during pandemic helicopter money times.

I think you should look into experiments with UBI.

Most people spent it on rent and groceries.

Also, I don't think it is harmful for people who need UBI to spend it on "unnecessary" things for enjoyment and happiness.

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making the Earth uninhabitable to all humans is bad news for Putin, a human who lives on Earth. He derives his power from hundreds of millions of people in Russia working, and his lifestyle from hundreds of millions of people around the world buying Russian exports so an attack on everyone is also going to harm him. AI wouldn’t be human, it wouldn’t necessarily object to a world uninhabitable to humans, or be hurt by…

Innumerable times quite reasonable political leaders have started wars that resulted in their own deaths; and sometimes resulted in the destruction of civilization as they knew it (most recently - World War I, which effectively put an end to the European monarchies). This suggests that giving nukes to reasonable political leaders presents a high and concrete risk. Giving nukes to political leaders with crazy ideas pr…

"AI escaping and taking over the world" is a phrasing which inverts the situation to make it sound much safer; a special effects explosion has to get everything right to be safe. If anything isn't right, people could get hurt by shrapnel, by pressure, by heat, by smoke, by nearby structures being weakened and collapsing, by that causing breakage of steam pipes or other secondary effects, by it triggering a chain of other fires or explosions, by nearby people reacting e.g. swerving the car they are driving, etc. There are few safe outcomes and many dangerous ones. If a baby elephant has to jump over you while you are lying on the ground without crushing you, it has to be graceful and precise in a way that baby elephants aren't. Maybe it will see you as a wobbly unsafe landing place and try to avoid you for that reason if you're lucky. If there was such a thing as a 'baby monster truck' well it would behave more like a monster truck with a brick on the accelerator. And your defense is to pooh pooh the idea that a vehicle "would escape and try to kill you" handwaving away all the times runaway vehicles kill people without any intent to do so.

CUDA (2007), capable GPGPUs (circa 2012), Attention Is All You Need paper (2017), GPT 2 (2019), ChatGPT (2022), OpenAI valued at ~$28Bn (April 2023), OpenAI valued at $80Bn (Feb 2024).

Computers use fewer bits to store a list of countries than humans use braincells to do the same, and they have an easier time of it. Computers do arithmetic much faster than humans. Computers use fewer logic gates to do arithmetic than humans use braincells to do arithmetic. I don't think we can take it for granted that we need enough computing power to simulate 86 billion neurons in realtime before computers can show any glimmer of intelligence.

> "It is similar to the risk of aliens attacking earth after detecting its TV and radio transmissions."

We have high confidence that there's no quicker way to get here than the speed of light. We know that space travel is vastly complex and expensive, so the kind of reasons humans went to war in the past (land, resources) do not apply to aliens - any species capable of making interplanetary warships can synthesise water, mine asteroids, build Dyson swarms, cheaper and quicker than coming here to take them from Earth. Even if they did want to destroy us, it wouldn't be Independence Day and Will Smith dogfighting, the aliens could piledrive Earth with one spaceship moving at interstellar speeds and bam, extinction level event we'd never see coming or have a chance to react to. When the meteorite crash extinguished the dinosaurs, the impact was like a megaton nuke every six kilometers and lead to hours of sustained inferno as all the displaced rock rained back to Earth, being on the other side of the Earth didn't protect dinosaurs from being cooked.[1]

A thing with power which is also untrained, untamed, clumsy, unaware, fundamentally alien without even the shared mammal / living creature history, doesn't have to choose to attack us it can potentially end our rather fragile lives with its initial thrashing about.

> "given how remote the associated risks are. The concerns about AI risks are like a drunk driver going 90 mph on a country road and suddenly deciding to stop saying "goddamn" just in case Jesus returns and punishes those who invoked God's name in vain in violation of the Third Commandment."

GPT1 (2018), GPT2 (2019), GPT3 (2020), GPT4 (2023), LLaMA (Feb 2023), TogetherAI released LLaMA training set (April 2023), LLaMA-2 (July 2023), llama.cpp (July 2023) now with >1500 releases since then, Mistral AI (April 2023), Anthropic Claude 3 (March 2024), Bard, LaMDA, Bing chat, BloombergAI, Bart, Gemma, Gemini, Grok, Sora, Falcon, https://llmmodels.org/

I don't think a present-day LLM is going to be the superintelligent AI, but in the last ~5-10 years we've poured billions of dollars, tens of thousands of the world's smartest information processing people, the resources of the world's biggest companies, the greed and investment resources of the world's VCs, the open collaborative spread of the internet, and added the heat and chaos of hype and FOMO and nationalist competition and dangled results (like SoRA) that machines have never been able to do before. If this doesn't ignite it, maybe it cannot be ignited. But if it can be ignited, we're trying hard. Could it be as far away as 2200? 2100? 2050? Could it be as near as 2040? 2035? 2030? 2026?

To just handwave this away as "the risks are remote" isn't convincing. The risk is on our doorstep, Aladdin's cave is open, the lamp is found and people are shoving pipecleaners down the spout, cupping their hands over it and calling "halloooooo, is anyone in theeeereeee? Genieeeeee?". The lockpickers are at Pandora's box, and Pandora is stepping away and looking nervous. Louis Slotin is showing off holding the two halves of the AI Demon Core apart with a screwdriver we're the bystanders saying to each other "this can't be dangerous there are no aliens in the room, lol". The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet - well if the AI wakes up[2] we'll have a sixteenth of a second to understand and respond before light has distributed its influence both ways around the Earth and met on the other side. Our main hope is that there is no Genie and that Pandora's box is past its use-by date and the contents are dust. Because we sure aren't building a suitable containment chamber, cautiously scanning it, and standing well back.

[1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-happened-...

[2] https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/28116 - Dial F for Frankenstein by Arthur C. Clarke ~1965

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#297
post #233
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controlling people with violence and fear are evolutionary adaptations for ultra violent social primates. AI has no such pressures imposed on it so there is no reason to expect true AI will have the same drives as ultra violent predators like humans.

Nuclear reactors aren’t expressing their primal urges when they melt down and kill people, they’re just powerful machines doing something unexpected.

Earthquakes are also unexpected and kill people all the time. What do you propose we do about the unexpected shifting of the tectonic plates?

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#298
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mrs. Davis[0] offers a pretty compelling vision of this - absurd but not wholly unbelievable. The machine doesn’t necessarily have to supply the physical threat if it has humans who happily do its bidding. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Davis

The hardest part is the AGI. People could easily sell their souls to the AGI devil to get knowledge and power, since if it truly is AGI, it should be able to make ideas compelling.

Hold up. Why is the AGI a devil now?

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#299
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if a terrifying AGI rises up and escapes our control, I am still eternally grateful that Prometheus stole fire from the gods and gave it to us in the form of technology, knowledge, really civilization.

So that we can record our demise in high definition? Technology is amazing, and we have our civilization to be thankful for. But there are definitely technologies that in retrospect, if we had dodged them on the tech tree, we would be better off. Life would have continued just fine without many technologies, and I think AGI is one of them. We do not need AGI to survive and grow, and therefore any risk it imposes shou…

Disagree. We’re already on the verge of collapse. We definitely need AGI.

Re: Among the A.I. doomsayers

#300
post #62

AGI escaping a sandbox is truly terrifying. There will be a subgroup of the population that will worship it and work for it. It's not so much AGI that scares me - it's the humans I'm scared of.

I'm much more scared of the AGI, because even the most inhuman human is still human, and I can have sympathy for them.

Sounds kinda like your problem ngl
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