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Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

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Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#221

Post by roody15 »

fairity wrote: post #149
klibertp wrote: post #93

My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…

Too many of us are attached to our intelligence. I love this story bc it's a reminder that we should value personal excellence over intelligence. By personal excellence I mean making the most of the intelligence you’re given. The arc of intelligence in Flowers of Algernon is the same arc we’ll all experience over our lifetime. With old age, we all lose our mental faculties. If we value intelligence, in and of itself,…

Well said. The more I read and attempt to understand LLM and AI the more interesting the parallels to the human mind. Our conscience mind is similar to a model and weights are applied in the training of our model in a variety of ways. Parents, school, environment, illness, books, video games , relationships, religion, etc all work to help fine tune our model and in essence develop our presented conscience self (well maybe … ). Breaking down of the neurons leads to the model itself breaking down and the conscience person we know is lost.

Perhaps there is more than us than just our conscience personality and the essence that vibes with the larger pattern of life and reality itself is more than our little personalized highly tuned version of “me”.

Interesting times to be alive for sure.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#222

Post by chaostheory »

klibertp wrote: post #93

My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…

There are preventative measures. The easiest and cheapest one is cardio exercise. I can’t run anymore, but I find the Quest VR headset to be a great way to do cardio workouts since you’re just playing video games. Much easier to do and less excuses than having to go to the gym.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#223

Post by IggleSniggle »

margalabargala wrote: post #209
IggleSniggle wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful there... NOTICE WARNING CONCERNING THE REPRODUCTION OF THIS LETTER The Reagan Library is authorized to make copies of this letter available only for the purpose of private study, scholarship or research. This letter may not be reproduced for publication without the expressed consent of the personal representative of Ronald Reagan. For more information contact: Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation 40 Presiden…

They didn't reproduce the letter, they simply showed you where the people authorized to make such a reproduction have posted the letter. If it makes you feel more comfortable, here is instead a reproduction by PBS: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/reagan-... and another by Time, including an image of the original handwritten letter: https://time.com/4473625/ronald-reagan-alzheimers-letter/ neither…

Presumably both Time and PBS obtained consent! I thought it less likely that a HN commenter had received explicit permission to reproduce, and just wanted to make sure poster didn't get in any trouble. But really, I was just making a dumb joke about conspicuous displays of power, wherever they may come from.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#224

Post by hirvi74 »

jjice wrote: post #34

This story is part of the reason I'd never want to know about where I land intelligence wise compared to other people. No matter the outcome, I don't think it could be good. I it's below average, I'll feel limited. If it's above average, I'll have added pressure of self expectations and maybe arrogance. That's not the case for everyone, but I'm happy where I am currently. Back to the story - the use of grammar and sp…

I believe you are right in your hesitancy. I was administered an IQ test as part of the diagnostic process for another medical condition. To be honest, I wish I was never shown the results. Now, to be be fair, I did kind of intentionally dodge a few questions and did get in a slight argument with the proctor over one of the sections. But I doubt either one of those actions had much of an impact on the grand total of my score. I did end up receiving a medical diagnosis, and was informed that my IQ is not an accurate assessment of my intelligence due to the test not being calibrated for people with my disability. Still, seeing that that I had 2.5 SD between some scores did kind of explain some things about my past.

Of course, IQ is highly debated and all that. I think there is some merit to IQ, and I also think intelligence is far more complex than what can be measured on a test. Still, I wish I never knew my score because it forever lives in the back of my mind rent free when applying for jobs, trying to learn new skills, etc.. I've always had low self-esteem, so perhaps it a matter of personality when it comes to these things.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#225

Post by danielheath »

nanolith wrote: post #203
Analemma_ wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine in theory, but the problem is that many, possibly most, Alzheimer's patients report that they are happy and don't want to die, even well into severe cases. Whose preference should get priority, past you or present you? Maybe the internal experience of severe Alzheimer's isn't as bad as you are imagining, but if your living will is ironclad, by the time you realize that you'd have no way to signal it, and…

The consciousness living in my body at that point may very well be happy, but that consciousness would not be me. I'd be gone, except perhaps in rare instances of lucidity. Sure, there is a Ship of Theseus argument to be had here, but I am very much opposed to being a burden on my loved ones, and if nothing were to change with my mind, that opposition would remain. I've seen first-hand the suffering that Alzheimer's…

If the old you is already dead - why should it get to decide whether or not to kill the new one, which wants to go on living.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#226

Post by swyx »

ProllyInfamous wrote: post #186
msgilligan wrote: post #126

"I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life." Regardless of one's political opinion of Ronald Reagan, his letter announcing his Alzheimer's diagnosis is relevant and poignant. https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/reagans-...

Nancy Reagan was a pretty decent president [for Ronnie's 2nd term, probably its entirety]. Not my favorite oligarchy figureheads, but definitely not the worst. May they rest in peace.

was she running things? this is the first i am hearing of it

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#227

Post by klibertp »

pc86 wrote: post #178
nanolith wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, someone who would thoroughly test such a system and formally verify it long before use, as it would literally be a life or death thing...

Oh right we'll just "formally verify it," all good then!

What's closer to "bug-free" (here, inside the cave) than formally verified software running on verified hardware in a distributed[1] system?

[1] Because "you can't type-check being hit by lightning"...

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#228

Post by nanolith »

danielheath wrote: post #225
nanolith wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consciousness living in my body at that point may very well be happy, but that consciousness would not be me. I'd be gone, except perhaps in rare instances of lucidity. Sure, there is a Ship of Theseus argument to be had here, but I am very much opposed to being a burden on my loved ones, and if nothing were to change with my mind, that opposition would remain. I've seen first-hand the suffering that Alzheimer's…

If the old you is already dead - why should it get to decide whether or not to kill the new one, which wants to go on living.

It's not about me, it's about the trauma that my husk causes to loved ones.

I'm a firm believer in euthanasia. I should get the choice while I am able to make that choice. If future me had the capacity to choose, future me would choose the same.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#229

Post by hirvi74 »

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #44
gmadsen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that possible to not know? Have you never worked on a team?

Just because you think you're the smartest person in the room doesn't make it true. While not the literal morale of the story of Flowers for Algernon, it's one of the big themes, i.e. your beliefs and understanding of your intelligence and the world around you change drastically with your "actual" intelligence.

> Just because you think you're the smartest person in the room doesn't make it true.

According to one (or more) of the annual Stack Overflow Developer Surveys, didn't something like over 90% of developers think they were better than the average developer?

My point is that I agree with you. What one thinks isn't always the reality.

Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]

#230

Post by hirvi74 »

icedchai wrote: post #88
yurishimo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, there is a difference between an informed estimate and knowing for sure. Maybe that person you always work with is not the brightest programmer, but maybe they don't care about it as much as you. People can demonstrate intelligence is many different ways. Plus, if they doesn't want to know, why does it matter? It's their life to live in ignorance. For this specific topic, I don't see any harm in leaving your…

As an 1980's "gifted" kid, believe me, they made sure you knew. IQ tests in 3rd grade, "enrichment" classes 3x a week, taking the SAT in 7th grade for some special program. Later in life, most of these gifted kids were total disappointments. I know I am.

It reminds me of the Lewis Terman study. Terman was a psychologist and intelligence research that studied the lives some n > 5000 "gifted" children over the course of his entire life (and their entire lives too). In fact, the study is still going on to my knowledge.

Anyway, of the all the gifted children studied, many of them went to be fairly accomplished but never became anything noteworthy -- doctors, lawyers, teachers, researchers, etc..

However, two of the children that didn't meet the cut for the study due to not having a high enough IQ actually went on to win a Nobel Peace Prize separately in separate fields. Those two individuals were Luis Alvarez and William Shockley.

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