I loved this book when I read it the first time, really touching. The theme most personal to me was that the brainier you are, the lonelier you get.
Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
201–210 of 272 posts
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
Out of curiosity, have you seen dementia first-hand, or are you just making academic assumptions?
Having first-hand experience from a care perspective doesn't give anyone any more insight into what's going on from a biological or mental standpoint.
I don't think that could possibly be true unless you are yourself very limited in your cognitive capacity. Spending many hours with someone as their cognition is eroded by disease process, how can you help learning about the disease and the consequences? It would be like raising children and ending up not understanding more about developmental psychology. Not saying it will purge your thoughts of all mistakes, but you will learn a lot. Even simple things like the end of the day is a low point of cognition for dementia patients. The cycle between forgetfulness and poor nutrition. How the rhythms of conversation can last longer than the content of the conversations. How music can be a comfort when no words matter. How one can forgot one's children yet still have the ability to see if they are hiding upset feelings. The strange mosaic of skills and abilities that make up our full humanity.
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxi…
That's fine in theory, but the problem is that many, possibly most, Alzheimer's patients report that they are happy and don't want to die, even well into severe cases. Whose preference should get priority, past you or present you? Maybe the internal experience of severe Alzheimer's isn't as bad as you are imagining, but if your living will is ironclad, by the time you realize that you'd have no way to signal it, and…
The consciousness living in my body at that point may very well be happy, but that consciousness would not be me. I'd be gone, except perhaps in rare instances of lucidity.
Sure, there is a Ship of Theseus argument to be had here, but I am very much opposed to being a burden on my loved ones, and if nothing were to change with my mind, that opposition would remain. I've seen first-hand the suffering that Alzheimer's inflicts on loved ones, and that's not something I would EVER consent to while in my right mind. The very idea horrifies me.
That the alien consciousness that would be inhabiting my body at that point doesn't want to die, and holds a few of my memories, is of little consequence to me. Even if this experience is pleasant, at that point, it's not my experience -- what little of "me" is left to experience it -- that I care about.
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#204My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…
Would you prefer to suffer through something like cancer, fully aware of your decline and unable to do anything but with the will to do so? Or just be completely unaware of what is going on but not necessarily in poor health? Dementia is certainly terrible in a unique and disturbing way for the afflicted and people that care about them, but Im not so sure some of the more understandable alternatives would be preferab…
One thing I wonder about: My dad had dementia and ended up pretty batty toward the end, though it came in waves and he was pretty lucid when he decided to "go". As I get older, I notice myself forgetting things more, but it mostly bothers me in the context of forgetting to do things at work. If I were retired, I'm not sure how much having a terrible short-term memory would affect my level of happiness. I can see myself living like my mother-in-law is now, in a kind of unagitated rolling 3 minute window of perception. Terrible for the people who have to clean up after me, but not necessarily so much from the other side of the glass.
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's far from "living with dignity", even if the body is still physically capable. It would be abhorrent if you understood what was going on, but if you did you wouldn't be in that state. I'm not sure whether in general terms Dementia is as traumatic for the sufferer as the observer who attaches value to a historical person (who for all intents and purposes is gone )
There's often a long overlap, though. Both my grandmothers died with Alzheimers. We'lll never know how long they knew, but in retrospect it's clear they knew of the decline for quite some time. My mothers mother avoided hospital until it became too apparent to everyone around here that my grandfather tricker her. She'd make jokes about her failing memory for years, and while some of it might have been genuine, in ret…
People with severe alzheimers have a major problem with short-term memory. So if they are in an environment where everything is the same as it has been for a long time, then can manage a long time, because their long-term memory is fine. But when something changes (like your grandfather going into hospital), it can often completely destabilize them and they often don't seem to get back to their prior level of functioning. I'm sorry your family had to go through that.
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#206This story is part of the reason I'd never want to know about where I land intelligence wise compared to other people. No matter the outcome, I don't think it could be good. I it's below average, I'll feel limited. If it's above average, I'll have added pressure of self expectations and maybe arrogance. That's not the case for everyone, but I'm happy where I am currently. Back to the story - the use of grammar and sp…
> “Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta.”
― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#207My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading. They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that... does it make it better? or worse? I do…
I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate. If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxi…
I've been thinking about the question: "where will all the people go?" and instead of you having to do all that. Why don't we just pair the serial killers with the people who want to die? The right-to-die folks get what they want, and the "serial killer"-types get to pull the proverbial trigger, and we get to interview them after.
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#208this is why i don’t take adderal i dare not glimpse what i can be for to lose it seems like a terrifying fate
I know a lot of people who are on ADHD medication and they're universally positive about it; nobody says they lost something. What they gained is mental silence so that for the first time in their lives they can think and focus clearly. Also emotional stabilisation.
It can be a mixed bag, and I personally don't take stims anymore.
But avoidance of medication just makes me thinks of the deaf people who oppose treatment because they worry they wouldn't be culturally deaf anymore.
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#209"I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life." Regardless of one's political opinion of Ronald Reagan, his letter announcing his Alzheimer's diagnosis is relevant and poignant. https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/reagans-...
Careful there... NOTICE WARNING CONCERNING THE REPRODUCTION OF THIS LETTER The Reagan Library is authorized to make copies of this letter available only for the purpose of private study, scholarship or research. This letter may not be reproduced for publication without the expressed consent of the personal representative of Ronald Reagan. For more information contact: Ronald Reagan Presidential Foundation 40 Presiden…
They didn't reproduce the letter, they simply showed you where the people authorized to make such a reproduction have posted the letter.
If it makes you feel more comfortable, here is instead a reproduction by PBS: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/reagan-...
and another by Time, including an image of the original handwritten letter: https://time.com/4473625/ronald-reagan-alzheimers-letter/
neither of which include the encumbrance that the Reagan Library added to their copy.
Re: Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
s/allegory/analogy/ It may just be a side effect of my dyslexia coping, but I read it as ‘analogy’ until reading your comment. Even then, I’m am pretty sure everyone knew they meant ‘analogy’ and just moved on. It’s okay to point out mistakes, but please be civil when doing so.
Hi, but I meant allegory indeed. According to Wiktionary: - (rhetoric) A narrative in which a character, place, or event is used to deliver a broader message about real-world issues and occurrences. - A picture, book, or other form of communication using such representation. - A symbolic representation which can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, usually a moral or political one. He might have been triggered…
My bad, my dyslexia and reacting to less-than polite comment got best of me :)