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Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

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Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our use of oil has also continued. We like to collectively talk about reduction but its incremental at best, and not enough to keep up with increased consumption elsewhere or actually meaningfully reduce anything. > Given this reality, how do you expect to achieve your goals in a reasonable time-frame? In the context of this thread, there's a bit of a false dichotomy here. You're asking why I should expect that peopl…

There is no false dichotomy because we absolutely should be reducing our emissions as much as possible and I never said otherwise, it's just that it probably won't be enough to achieve any significant cooling effect in a reasonable time scale to prevent the scenario described in TFA. It's possible we will see mass death in the coming decades due to extreme heat events. I am just saying we should be preparing alternat…

Wouldn't it still be leaning on that hope basket to intervene in the entire atmosphere with an untested solution that may help slow or reverse climate change, but may also have unintended side effects that actually make things worse?

One interesting example from very recent research. In just the last couple of years we began enforcing reduced sulfur emissions from diesel motors in international waters. The expectation was that would help with climate change, how couldn't it? Well it turns out that ocean temperatures actually rose in the open ocean where almost all traffic is diesel. The research I suggesting that the sulfur was actually helping to block out some of the sun's energy and was acting as a cooling agent. The well thought out and well reasoned approach to diesel emissions back fired and made things worse.

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#212
post #14

Fun fact I remember reading in some studies: increased heat increases tendency for violence. Ah, not the ones I had in mind, but these will do: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/07/16/two-new-s... https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~schaller/308Readings/Anderson2001...

Entirely obvious for anyone living in a city that both heat and the full moon have a tangible effect on that.

full moon?

citation needed please

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#213

A friend of mine who lives in Queensland (Sunshine Coast) was talking about a recent spell of 32° and 100% humidity and how oppressive it was. My understanding is that such weather is not survivable long term [1] without air conditioning. A power failure would be disastrous. [1] https://www.psu.edu/news/research/story/humans-cant-endure-t...

Millions of people already live in these conditions (temperature in the low 30s, constant high humidity) in the tropics so I am skeptical about that study. It sucks for me in those conditions but a lot of locals say they're used to it. The general strategy without AC is to minimize activity during the hottest part of the day and keep a fan on you.

So do any of the people who downvoted this into oblivion actually live in the tropics? I mean I don't know about 35 at 100% humidity, but like 32 at 75% humidity is the daytime average for some months where I am, and it gets higher when there are heat waves, and many people don't own fans. None of this is new. No mass heat deaths yet. But hey there's one study so the apocalypse is around the corner right

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#214
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is scary - but I suspect the headline temperatures/humidity aren't the only story. We can build passive structures to regulate peak temperatures - caves and windowless insulated boxes with high thermal mass, for instance. As long as the average temperatures (day and night) over a few days or a week are survivable, active cooling isn't strictly necessary.

> We can build passive structures to regulate peak temperatures - caves and windowless insulated boxes with high thermal mass, for instance. As long as the average temperatures (day and night) over a few days or a week are survivable, active cooling isn't strictly necessary. Survival is a consolation, but if we need to start living in caves and windowless insulated boxes, then those are not very reassuring news...

Make a visit to one of the cold-as-hell regions of the world and take a look at how traditional houses look. Window sizes, wall thickness. Look at the energy usage needed to survive the climate. If people organise themselves, they can both survive and thrive in extreme conditions. Even just as isolated individuals.

Regions with high humidity and high temperatures also have huge rivers and waterfalls for cooling, irrigation and hydroelectric power plants to run millions of AC Units and build AC factories.

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of people already live in these conditions (temperature in the low 30s, constant high humidity) in the tropics so I am skeptical about that study. It sucks for me in those conditions but a lot of locals say they're used to it. The general strategy without AC is to minimize activity during the hottest part of the day and keep a fan on you.

With high enough heat, a fan will only make things worse, no?

I can only report what I see, which is that in many parts of the world including where I live, it's always in the 30s, humidity levels are high, a lot of people can't afford air con, and there are no mass heat deaths.

If they don't have access to AC they run fans all the time, and they stay indoors or in the shade.

In fact in the cold months where it dips under 30 the local news always runs a story or two about the (small) wave of cold deaths. (I think usually in parts of the country where it gets down to 15-20 at night)

Today it was 35 in the afternoon and about 70% humidity. I went outside for a swim. There were probably over a million people in my city who were sitting outside all day because their jobs required it. It was a somewhat hot but otherwise completely ordinary day. If you said they're on the brink of heat death they'd say you're crazy.

It may be that people who sit in air conditioned offices in cold countries are translating that one study into some hysteria. It may be they will have the "opportunity" to learn to live in a hot climate like the rest of us, rather than die by the millions.

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm convinced that there is a contingent in society that has crossed both side of the political spectrum that is increasingly less empathetic to assisting poorer regions of the world as the negative effects of climate change start setting in, and its only going to grow Its anecdotal, but my very progressive friends (think: Bernie Sanders type voters) have over time subtly started expressing opinions that are regressi…

I can understand why even Bernie Sanders type voters start "victim blaming".. all humans are selfish creatures, and we sure don't want to give up our comforts more than we'd like. Recycling, switching to EVs and LEDs, well, most people are comfortable with that. Never fly to Rome or Thailand again? "But I need to..!", some will say. And sooner or later we'll start justifying their selfishness by saying it's not our f…

>Never fly to Rome or Thailand again

I know this isn't the point of your reply, which I agree with the point its making, but I often wonder if there is a way to do green sailing both economically and fast enough that taking say, a 3 day sail to other countries becomes the norm rather than flying everywhere, baked into the experience of a vacation as it were.

Even if we could simply limit air travel to critical business only, it'd be a dramatic step in the right direction on multiple fronts (pollution, reducing C02 emissions etc)

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Demand for air conditioning is expected to more than triple by 2050 Which further exacerbates the problem. Another unfortunate feedback loop for us.

Though demand for heating should be falling simultaneously, no? I wonder what the net CO2 tradeoff is there. At least historically with burning fuels to create heat, that likely contributed more per unit of degree-change than AC, however with Heat pumps now that's probably either a wash or reversed, if I had to guess.

Yeah, there is a lot more energy spent for heating, https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/homes.php. Climate change is a problem, but this narrative that poor people near the tropics will needs to use some energy, the world is ending is kinda gross. Even with ACs they will only use a fraction of the energy of people living in Finland or Canada. Plus, the energy they do use will have a lower carbon footprint.

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#218
post #64
post #45

People from Middle East and Northern Africa who have been living in harsh conditions for the last several THOUSAND years send regards to all climate change researchers.

They face dry heat, not humid, extreme heat. These are different problems. Dry heat easier to solve.

coastal regions face high heat and high humidity. Think of Persian gulf countries and southern Iran, or the likes of Djibouti.

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#219
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that humidity level you can't cool by sweating. We've had days like that in southern Sweden, near the coast with very high humidity. I'm starting to go crazy over us not having ACs, and windows that are really hard to get working well with a portable ac. Retirement homes celebrate getting ice cream machines, but still lack AC and the deaths during summer are significantly higher =/

Europe in general needs to get with the program. The States have AC'd everything - busses, elevators, train stations, etc. Ice coffee in Europe is not a thing! Ask for it and you will be looked at funny. And even the "cold" drinks from the fridge in a store are just below room temperature. I don't get it.

Maybe, if we wouldn't have AC'd everything we wouldn't be in this pickle. Cooling costs energy and it's not like the USA is generally a hot country. Just a thought.

Re: Humanity Is Dangerously Pushing Its Ability to Tolerate Heat

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an opportunity for many of the people living near the equator to become more prosperous Please tell us, what you have in mind. More economic growth?

Yes, of course. There's a reason why people in developing countries are the least concerned about pollution or global warming. It's because economic growth has a much greater positive impact on their lives than an imperceptibly slow warming of the planet.

> developing countries are the least concerned about pollution or global warming

Chile, Morocco, and India are in the top 10 of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_Change_Performance_Ind....

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