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Dress code: blue tie and male

elektronista.dk

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Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#101

Post by aptwebapps »

gfodor wrote: post #37
spindritf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? About as many times as we make powerful people apologise in public, especially when they're not really feeling guilty. And it's not always in that form, sometimes it's closer to Clinton's "mistakes were made". While most non-apologies are pretty standard, there is some variation and innovation.

The thing I don't understand about this is that it seems to me that when public figures, companies, etc come out with genuine apologies, it ends up being a net positive. They garner respect from their friends and their enemies. They get good press. They often manage to repair most of the relationships that were in question. It almost seems like that even if someone were not feeling guilty, the logical thing would be…

"I find it hard to believe that folks who are already so good at stretching the truth to their own benefit like politicans would somehow let their personal ego and pride get in the way of them making a fake "real" apology if that would benefit them the most."

I'm sure a lot of the 'real' apologies you hear are exactly of that nature. But ego and pride don't get checked at the door when someone enters politics - far from it. Not many politicians have the discipline to be perfect PR machines at all times. Many of them seem to oscillate between politically optimized and natural states.

"It seems to me that there is some underlying calculus that all these actors have made that issuing a bogus one has a better net effect that a real one."

If we're talking about actual politicians rather than corporate spokespeople then there's always the possibility of a little dog-whistling going on. If you trot out the standard pro forma apology then most of the people are somewhat aggrieved and those who actually liked or agreed with your original statement or action can say that the apology is just PR and you don't really mean it. I can't see that happening much outside of actual politics.

"I suppose I should be thankful that if this is the case then at least we are going to be able to tell the bullshitters from the honest people, since only the honest ones will be making genuine apologies despite their potential for harm."

I don't think it's a reliable guide for the reason I stated at the top.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#102

Post by johnpowell »

etherael wrote: post #79

I know it's fashionable to have a knee jerk reaction and not actually check backstory etc, but just quietly. http://www.madschristensen-foredrag.dk/mc/Aktuelt-og-media This guy is clearly a comedian / over the top on purpose, to say that he actually genuinely believes the purposefully crafted bullshit on display in this particular article is to say that Les Patterson from Australia actually thinks that it's appropria…

I'm pretty sure Andrew Dice Clay will not be on stage at WWDC.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#103

Post by laumac »

kingkilr wrote: post #97
josephcooney wrote: post #85

Picture this if you will: Half way through Mads Christensen's 'spot/tirade' Michael Dell walks onto the stage carrying a microphone. Mad's microphone goes dead. "Well Mads, I know we (Dell) asked you to come along and speak today" says Michael "but your views about women are very, very wrong. They don't represent my views, the views of my company, and they have no place at this conference. We're going to have a 15-mi…

Was the show you were wathching "Australia's Naughties Home Videos"? I know that was cancelled half way through it's first episode by the network owner.

If only it were Home and Away...

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#104

Post by aptwebapps »

etherael wrote: post #88
polemic wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing: it's not humour. It's misogyny thinly dressed as an "edgy" dig so that anyone who protests can be deflected with this sort of defence. It's a tried and true technique to broadcast bigotry and slander with a wink and a nudge. I'm not saying you agree with his sentiments, but I am saying that it's not ok to say "it's just a joke". And it's not ok for Dell to let him continue to moderate their conferen…

> PS we have very different definitions of 'self-deprecating'. It's self deprecating when you make ridiculously over the top statements about how awesome you are because it makes you look like an idiot. That old "I'm a pretty big deal around here" chestnut. It is humour, whether or not it is taken as such is a different issue, when Bill Hicks gets up on stage and repeatedly tells people in advertising to kill themsel…

Nitpicking/clarifying a little bit:

"It's self deprecating when you make ridiculously over the top statements about how awesome you are because it makes you look like an idiot."

Usually self-deprecating humor has to be a little more direct to be called such. Conan O'Brien is an good example. Acting ridiculous is a different kind of humor if even if it does make you look like an ass.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#105

Post by aptwebapps »

callil wrote: post #10
kylemaxwell wrote: post #2

I'll keep an open mind about the company for now, because I've not found their side of the story (this occurred a few weeks ago), but Michael Dell should personally and sincerely apologize for his company. This doesn't match at all what I have long understood to be their internal culture.

If this is true, how were people not walking out? “The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy” he says. “What are you actually doing here?” he adds to the few women who are actually present in the room. Are you kidding me?

The fact that nearly everyone there was an employee might have something to do with it.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#106

Post by Poiesis »

brown9-2 wrote: post #50
cbsmith wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think there are lots of cases where it is perfectly warranted. It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. There are experts in the fields of diplomacy and etiquette who devote their careers to getting this stuff right, and usually even then there is someone offended about efforts to be so "proper". ;-) So, I think it is a perfectly v…

So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset This is what makes it a non -apology.

>> So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset > This is what makes it a non-apology. reply

This issue is one that my views have changed on over the years, and I've spent some time thinking about it. I currently do sometimes give that "non-apology", if you will. What else do I say when A) someone was hurt by something I said, but B) I don't know what I should have said differently? I genuinely feel bad for someone who is hurt by my actions, even if I feel that I couldn't have predicted/avoided it.

It's kind of like when two people start talking at once--there's no real fault there; you can apologize without feeling "man, I really should have not started talking", assuming there were no cues.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#107

Post by Lanzaa »

MBlume wrote: post #65

This is beyond disgusting. How did the people in the room not simply walk out? ETA: Scripts are good for these things. It's difficult, in the shock and confusion of the moment, to decide what to do. So, here's one script. When you're in a presentation, and a speaker starts talking like this (or talking about "gang-bang interviews" or whatever else) you stand quietly, and you leave. You tweet what happened. If there i…

I don't think leaving and tweeting about how you feel is a very useful response. It could lead to a form of evaporative cooling[1] and cause the behavior of the group to worsen. It may be better to put pressure on the group to change. Find someone who is in charge and complain about the behavior you find inappropriate and encourage other people who find the behavior inappropriate to complain as well.

[1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/lr/evaporative_cooling_of_group_beli...

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#108

Post by fusiongyro »

etherael wrote: post #92
polemic wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It is humour, whether or not it is taken as such is a different issue, when Bill Hicks gets up on stage and repeatedly tells people in advertising to kill themselves, he's not actually serious. Some might take that seriously but he's a comedian and it's humor." Firstly, the standard of conduct for the moderator of a corporate event is not the same as for a comedian working his routine in a club. Secondly, Bill Hic…

"This guy was not funny" is a different criticism to "This guy engaged in straightfaced serious misogynistic commentary" is a different criticism to "This guy should not have been hired for this particular venue". The only thing I have a problem with is the statement "This guy engaged in straightfaced serious misogynistic commentary". And that is a large portion of the criticism here, it's missing the point.

> "This guy engaged in straightfaced serious misogynistic commentary" is a different criticism to "This guy should not have been hired for this particular venue".

Actually, in this case, in America, the former implies the latter. This kind of rhetoric simply isn't appropriate in this kind of venue, whether it's meant comedically or not.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#109

Post by Groxx »

jlgreco wrote: post #9
Groxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, that's one of the less offensive ones I've encountered. Narrower than most, and not animated. edit: oh, it's just a bit buggy. make your window narrower, and it disappears :) that makes it way better than most I've seen.

http://i.imgur.com/nw6TM.png That's what it looks like to me with my browser maximized. How people design things like this and don't do a quick check to make sure it works well for different reasonable browser window dimensions is beyond me.

Did you try making it narrower? It hides the floaty sidebar thing when the window is narrower than the main page content.

Totally unintuitive, but better than leaving it there, which is what most sites do.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#110

Post by erikpukinskis »

cbsmith wrote: post #46
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

I actually think there are lots of cases where it is perfectly warranted. It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. There are experts in the fields of diplomacy and etiquette who devote their careers to getting this stuff right, and usually even then there is someone offended about efforts to be so "proper". ;-) So, I think it is a perfectly v…

This has nothing to do with being "upset" or "offended" or "proper" or "etiquette".

It has to do with little girls growing up thinking there are entire categories of things they can't do. And it has to do with grown women being unable to do their jobs because too much of their time is spend dealing with the fact that their coworkers can't handle working with a woman. I'm not "offended" that Dell is contributing to that, I'm sad.

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