Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#11

Post by a_bonobo » Sun, May 13, 2012, 2:37 AM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #8

Calling access to a consumer good a "right" really cheapens the concept. The right to free speech doesn't promise every citizen a printing press.

Have you read the article?

>the Finnish government said that no household "would be farther than 2 kilometers from a connection capable of delivering broadband Internet with a capacity of at least 100 megabits of data a second."

That doesn't say anything on who's going to pay, probably the people.

What do you mean by "cheapens the concept"? I don't understand this formulation. What concept?

From my point of view, water and food could be called consumer goods. Access to food is already a human right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_food) while it's not yet settled 100% that water is a human right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_water)

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#12

Post by Tuna-Fish » Sun, May 13, 2012, 2:44 AM UTC

darksaga wrote: post #7

Also keep in mind this is in a country with around 5 million people and an area of around 330K sq miles. By contrast, Texas has 25 million people in roughly the same sq mile area. Making such promises shouldn't be hard considering the size of the population and the area you're dealing with in terms of having to lay fibre.

A very important point is that while Finland has an area of 330K km^2, almost all of the population is concentrated on the coasts and a few in-land cities. You can probably get 95% penetration with less than 30K km^2 coverage. The rest will likely be served with wireless broadband.

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#13

Post by Natsu » Sun, May 13, 2012, 3:06 AM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #8

Calling access to a consumer good a "right" really cheapens the concept. The right to free speech doesn't promise every citizen a printing press.

It is becoming more and more necessary over time. Addressing it as a common need and making sure that everyone can accesses it is not inherently unreasonable.

Questions of "rights" devolve into discussions of fairness with each person asserting that their sense of justice is the one that society ought to satisfy. It makes more sense to examine an issue like this from a perspective of utility: the internet is incredibly useful for education and communication, both of which benefit society.

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#14

Post by waterlesscloud » Sun, May 13, 2012, 4:21 AM UTC

hartror wrote: post #9

darksaga wrote: post #7

Also keep in mind this is in a country with around 5 million people and an area of around 330K sq miles. By contrast, Texas has 25 million people in roughly the same sq mile area. Making such promises shouldn't be hard considering the size of the population and the area you're dealing with in terms of having to lay fibre.

Surely in your example it is actually more economical for Texas than for Finland as the greater concentration of people makes it easier to deliver the service? Sure it would cost more but on a per head basis it should be cheaper . . .

It costs as much to lay the fiber to one person as it does to 2000 in the same place, so a greater area is a disadvantage.

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#15

Post by paulhauggis » Sun, May 13, 2012, 4:22 AM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #13

crazy1van wrote: post #8

Calling access to a consumer good a "right" really cheapens the concept. The right to free speech doesn't promise every citizen a printing press.

It is becoming more and more necessary over time. Addressing it as a common need and making sure that everyone can accesses it is not inherently unreasonable. Questions of "rights" devolve into discussions of fairness with each person asserting that their sense of justice is the one that society ought to satisfy. It makes more sense to examine an issue like this from a perspective of utility: the internet is incredib…

"Addressing it as a common need and making sure that everyone can accesses it is not inherently unreasonable."

There are public libraries in nearly every city with free Internet access.

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#16

Post by jarospisak » Sun, May 13, 2012, 5:02 AM UTC

waterlesscloud wrote: post #14

hartror wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely in your example it is actually more economical for Texas than for Finland as the greater concentration of people makes it easier to deliver the service? Sure it would cost more but on a per head basis it should be cheaper . . .

It costs as much to lay the fiber to one person as it does to 2000 in the same place, so a greater area is a disadvantage.

He said "on a per-head basis". On a per-head basis it's 5 times cheaper for Texas to lay fiber than for Finland (greatly simplifying, of course).

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#17

Post by Natsu » Sun, May 13, 2012, 5:03 AM UTC

paulhauggis wrote: post #15

Natsu wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is becoming more and more necessary over time. Addressing it as a common need and making sure that everyone can accesses it is not inherently unreasonable. Questions of "rights" devolve into discussions of fairness with each person asserting that their sense of justice is the one that society ought to satisfy. It makes more sense to examine an issue like this from a perspective of utility: the internet is incredib…

"Addressing it as a common need and making sure that everyone can accesses it is not inherently unreasonable." There are public libraries in nearly every city with free Internet access.

Which illustrates how much easier things get when one focuses on the pragmatics of the situation. One can then focus on whatever areas are under-served and how best to deal with that.

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#18

Post by waterlesscloud » Sun, May 13, 2012, 5:13 AM UTC

jarospisak wrote: post #16

waterlesscloud wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It costs as much to lay the fiber to one person as it does to 2000 in the same place, so a greater area is a disadvantage.

He said "on a per-head basis". On a per-head basis it's 5 times cheaper for Texas to lay fiber than for Finland (greatly simplifying, of course).

No.

If you bunch everyone up, it's cheaper per head.

But if you spread everyone out, it's more expensive per head, because on average you're laying more fiber per person.

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#19

Post by 46Bit » Sun, May 13, 2012, 5:36 AM UTC

paulhauggis wrote: post #15

Natsu wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is becoming more and more necessary over time. Addressing it as a common need and making sure that everyone can accesses it is not inherently unreasonable. Questions of "rights" devolve into discussions of fairness with each person asserting that their sense of justice is the one that society ought to satisfy. It makes more sense to examine an issue like this from a perspective of utility: the internet is incredib…

"Addressing it as a common need and making sure that everyone can accesses it is not inherently unreasonable." There are public libraries in nearly every city with free Internet access.

Where you often struggle to get enough time to do anything - even if you're willing to trust the machines to not be compromised.

There's a fantastic article from a librarian on the topic of helping people to use library computers and the problems users have, although a quick hunt doesn't seem to turn it up - anyone?

Re: Finland makes 1Mb broadband access a legal right (2009)

#20

Post by nextparadigms » Sun, May 13, 2012, 5:42 AM UTC

crazy1van wrote: post #8

Calling access to a consumer good a "right" really cheapens the concept. The right to free speech doesn't promise every citizen a printing press.

"The right to free speech doesn't promise every citizen a printing press."

So why can't that change if it's easy and cheap enough to do it for every citizen, seeing how it's so important for a person's freedom of speech?