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Dress code: blue tie and male

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Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#51

Post by petercooper »

philwelch wrote: post #38
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

Actually apologizing admits to wrongdoing, which opens one up to liability and other consequences. Not apologizing at all is seen as callous and only incites the mob against you. A non-apology apology is still enough to settle the mob but not enough to open one up to liability. The only downside is that it upsets intelligent people like you and I who are capable of actually parsing and understanding these kinds of st…

Not apologizing at all is seen as callous and only incites the mob against you. A non-apology apology is still enough to settle the mob but not enough to open one up to liability.

Historically, I'd agree, but my observation (and opinion) is that real time mass communications and an ever dropping attention span mean that half-hearted apologies (or even sincere ones!) merely fan the flames, whereas radio silence lets the storm clouds pass because people's attention spans are so short.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#52

Post by byrneseyeview »

gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

But that's exactly what they're sorry for. It's not like Dell's going to say "We're sorry we hired a jerk." That implies that they meant to hire a jerk. "We're sorry you're offended" means "We didn't do this out of malice, but we recognize that it was hurtful regardless, and that's why we're sorry."

I always get the feeling that what they're really supposed to do is grovel--to admit that it wasn't an honest mistake, but that they really were being evil, and that they've finally been caught and forced to own up. I don't think people are comfortable with diversity when it means that some people think it's totally okay to do something that other people would find horribly offensive.

I'm sorry if that's offensive. But that's all I'm sorry for.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#53

Post by olavk »

losvedir wrote: post #45

Wait, so is he a comedian MC'ing the event? If it's a roast or something, and he's poking at the fact that there's not a lot of women in tech: The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy As in, what are you guys doing to cause not a lot of women to be in IT. It's almost as if there's a quota! If that's the case it's still…

He is not a comedian but kind of a pundit and lifestyle expert. He sincerely believes women are getting stronger and more successful than men, and men have to fight back. For the sake of entertainment he presents his viewpoints in an over-the-top and exaggerated manner, so it is hard to say how much is serious and how much is hyperbole.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#54

Post by _delirium »

olavk wrote: post #49
orcadk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't go as far as saying he's explicitly known for making racist jokes. He is however known for (and markets himself as) being politically incorrect - which may very well include both racism and chauvinism.

He did get into trouble for saying that "some negroes do look like monkeys" on national radio. But generally he is more known for controversial relationship advice and armchair heroics.

There was also that controversy last year when he said Breivik would've killed fewer people if Scandinavians weren't so passive, and were more willing to fight like Americans. I'm surprised that after that kind of press, corporations wouldn't steer clear...

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#55

Post by DanBC »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #52
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

But that's exactly what they're sorry for. It's not like Dell's going to say "We're sorry we hired a jerk." That implies that they meant to hire a jerk. "We're sorry you're offended" means "We didn't do this out of malice, but we recognize that it was hurtful regardless, and that's why we're sorry." I always get the feeling that what they're really supposed to do is grovel--to admit that it wasn't an honest mistake,…

"We're sorry. We made a mistake." == taking responsibility for what they did.

"We're sorry you feel that way." == passing the responsibility back onto the other person.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#56

Post by philwelch »

petercooper wrote: post #51
philwelch wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually apologizing admits to wrongdoing, which opens one up to liability and other consequences. Not apologizing at all is seen as callous and only incites the mob against you. A non-apology apology is still enough to settle the mob but not enough to open one up to liability. The only downside is that it upsets intelligent people like you and I who are capable of actually parsing and understanding these kinds of st…

Not apologizing at all is seen as callous and only incites the mob against you. A non-apology apology is still enough to settle the mob but not enough to open one up to liability. Historically, I'd agree, but my observation (and opinion) is that real time mass communications and an ever dropping attention span mean that half-hearted apologies (or even sincere ones!) merely fan the flames, whereas radio silence lets t…

That would sure be an interesting development, and I'll be on the lookout for it. But there's a very strong niche for people to deliberately sit around and fan the flames of outrage, and if anything that's become even easier as of late.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#57

Post by jsnk »

losvedir wrote: post #45

Wait, so is he a comedian MC'ing the event? If it's a roast or something, and he's poking at the fact that there's not a lot of women in tech: The IT business is one of the last frontiers that manages to keep women out. The quota of women to men in your business is sound and healthy As in, what are you guys doing to cause not a lot of women to be in IT. It's almost as if there's a quota! If that's the case it's still…

He's an act, the similar manner Christopher Hitchens was about religion and Jeremy Clarkson is about cars. Not that they are fakers, but their presentations are intentionally over the top and insensitive to arouse interest and entertain the audience.

Danish Dell fucked up this time. This is really not the kind of PR Dell can afford to receive.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#59

Post by baddox »

brown9-2 wrote: post #50
cbsmith wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think there are lots of cases where it is perfectly warranted. It's a big world; if you are on the world stage, it is quite difficult not to offend somebody no matter what you do. There are experts in the fields of diplomacy and etiquette who devote their careers to getting this stuff right, and usually even then there is someone offended about efforts to be so "proper". ;-) So, I think it is a perfectly v…

So, I think it is a perfectly valid apology if basically the only thing you regretted about your actions was that it made someone upset This is what makes it a non -apology.

No, it doesn't. If you say something that offends somebody, what else is there to be sorry about? It's not like you killed somebody and offended somebody else, and are only apologizing the offending part. When you offend someone, that's the only bad thing that happens. Or, as comedian Steve Hughes puts it, nothing happens when you're offended.

Re: Dress code: blue tie and male

#60

Post by gfodor »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #52
gfodor wrote: post #25

How many times are we going to keep hearing the non-apology apology: "We are sorry if some were offended..."? I am so tired of it, it has become a cliche. When did the business world/lawyers decide this was the optimal legal response to customers? My blood boils every time I read it as it is the most disingenuous, calculated, shallow tripe you can trot out when you fuck up. What ever happened to just owning up to you…

But that's exactly what they're sorry for. It's not like Dell's going to say "We're sorry we hired a jerk." That implies that they meant to hire a jerk. "We're sorry you're offended" means "We didn't do this out of malice, but we recognize that it was hurtful regardless, and that's why we're sorry." I always get the feeling that what they're really supposed to do is grovel--to admit that it wasn't an honest mistake,…

> But that's exactly what they're sorry for. It's not like Dell's going to say "We're sorry we hired a jerk." That implies that they meant to hire a jerk.

Say what? That doesn't imply that at all. It implies they made an error of judgement, be it due to poor due diligence, a misperception of what is appropriate, weighing the options between "controversy" and "politically correct" and falling too far to the one side, and so on. It has nothing to do with intent, it has to do with making an error and telling your customers/audience that you learned from the error and will not make a similar one in the future.

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