Earlier quoted context omitted.
XML comes from spreadsheets?
It doesn’t.
Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
61–70 of 99 posts
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#62Thankfully we've moved on and no longer invent XML languages. We use YAML now which is obviously much better.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I quite like XML. Things like xpath make working with it XPath is great. 1.0 anyway, after that everything but the new functions was nonsense. But do note: XPath is not an xml dialect, it’s a non-XML DSL being applied to documents.
That makes sense about xpath not being an XML dialect. Its much easier than .NextSibling.ParentNode... etc etc. I always try to go for the path of least resistant.
But the point is that it follows TFA's advice: while it's a DSL for working with XML, it's not an XML language.
Wish that XSLT had been the same, it could have been so much better.
> Its much easier than .NextSibling.ParentNode... etc etc.
I don't think that has any relation. Also it does look a lot like what you wrote:
./following-sibling::*[position()=1]/parent::*
even if you use the various shortcuts, since there is none for the next sibling or following siblings: ./following-sibling::*[1]/..Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#64Side question: when did XML start to loose favour to JSON? Did this happen because of something in particular or was it a gradual transition?
1. mismanagement by w3c of associated standards:
The awful bloated XML Schema spec that can't even validate many types of common XML design patterns, obviously as shown by Schematron it would be better if they had leveraged XPath in making the validation format they pushed on everyone and made people think wow, XML is this big complicated bloated beast, we need something else.
The awful bloated SOAP spec which Don Box once said if only XML schema had existed we wouldn't have had to make SOAP - let me tell you that was the best darn laugh I had in that year! Which of course with the whole Rest movement - very loosely based on a member of the W3C's PhD dissertation - and W3C committed to SOAP that everyone resented it made everyone resent the W3C and XML in turn.
The tying of second versions of successful standards in to the questionable XML Schema spec made members of communities using these successful technologies - XSL-T, XPath - feel that maybe they weren't enjoying the new versions of the tech so much, there was some drop-off and complaints.
The creation of XHTML as an XML dialect did not suit very many people.
2. Continued increase of the Web as platform of choice.
The successful XML technologies were not well suited to making web sites that were not document based. If your site was say a thin navigation structure to allow you to get around a bunch of documents a top level programming language to handle serving documents, transforming documents to XHTML with XSLT, and then a thin layer of JavaScript on top was quite a decent solution.
But XSLT is not really suitable to making all sorts of sites with lots of different data sources being pulled in to build a frontend. So when you have a lot of languages in use what do you do? You drop the language that is least suited to most of your tasks and use some of the other languages to take care of the dropped functionality, thus easing cognitive load.
I'm serious about this, I was very good with XSLT and associated technologies and built many high quality document based websites for large organization, but the XML stack of technologies is sub-par for building most modern websites that often contain multiple app-like functionalities on every page.
I suppose that the programmers and technologists at the W3C did not realize this because they did not build websites, they were more Enterprise applications, data pipelines and many coming from the publishing world.
3. JSON was being pushed by Douglas Crockford. As the E programming language was shutting down https://www.crockford.com/ec/etut.html he started to focus more of his time on JavaScript and arguing for JSON which essentially he identified as existing as a potential data interchange format. As REST started to take away from SOAP and JSON got pushed by someone who did understand web programming the increasing web focused software development environment moved away from SOAP and XML which were seen as being essentially the same to REST and JSON (or really REST-like and JSON-like) because these were seen as being simpler and quicker to iterate with - which is essentially correct.
On the Web, especially web frontend simple wins because frontend development is in many ways more complicated than other forms of development - why so? Because a frontend developer potentially has to handle very many more types of complexity than are generally handled in other programming disciplines - this often leads Frontend developers to cut corners that other disciplines wouldn't so as to cut cognitive load but here I'm definitely getting off the subject - at any rate for the expanding web market XML and its related technologies were a bundle of complexity that could be replaced with a simpler stack, even if it meant that some of the things that stack was good at might be made slightly harder it seemed and probably nearly always was still a significant win.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#65Side question: when did XML start to loose favour to JSON? Did this happen because of something in particular or was it a gradual transition?
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#66Thankfully we've moved on and no longer invent XML languages. We use YAML now which is obviously much better.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#67Personally, I like to use TOML for anything that is likely to also be edited by humans and JSON or binary for something that will only ever be used by machines.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#68This is less about hating on XML and more about not reinventing the wheel. I quite like XML. Things like xpath make working with it, or getting data from it much easier than JSON; though I love jq syntax and can't wait until it starts being incorporated into languages. I don't even mind xslt provided it's not being over used.
Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#69Re: Don't Invent XML Languages (2006)
#70I hate xml.