Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#21

Post by Riesling » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:14 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #15

The pirate party will continue to win seats until the larger and more traditional parties will need them for a swing vote. The election after that one the pirate party main points will be part and parcel of the established parties' programmes.

> The election after that one the pirate party main points will be part and parcel of the established parties' programmes.

I doubt that. One of the main points of the pirate party is to take power away from the politicians and give it back to the people (via direct democracy and member votes). The existing politicians would need to change things massively to their own disadvantage.

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#22

Post by brazzy » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:33 PM UTC

muuh-gnu wrote: post #13

In other news, former German president Roman Herzog, member of the (for now) largest party, the Christian Democratical Union CDU, suggested that having new parties like the Pirates entering parliaments is bad for overall democracy because it is increasing political diversity, and should be combated by again increasing the election threshold, which is now at 5%. According to the interview he gave recently, increasing…

This has to be understood in historical context. Germany has had a very Bad experience with an excessively fragmented parliament in the Weimar republic, which led to constant Government breakups and reelections, paralysing the country politically and paving the way for someone who promised to do away with all that sissy democracy stuff...

That's why the 5% threshold was established.

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#23

Post by drats » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:35 PM UTC

muuh-gnu wrote: post #13

In other news, former German president Roman Herzog, member of the (for now) largest party, the Christian Democratical Union CDU, suggested that having new parties like the Pirates entering parliaments is bad for overall democracy because it is increasing political diversity, and should be combated by again increasing the election threshold, which is now at 5%. According to the interview he gave recently, increasing…

If he's so upset he can always adopt some of their policies.

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#24

Post by NameNickHN » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:36 PM UTC

forgetmyid wrote: post #3

"The reason for their quick growth is that they are new and that's enough at the moment. But not in the long run." Gero Neugebauer Political scientist, Free University Berlin So what? To paraphrase Keynes, in the long run we are all dead. I really dislike such dismissal without some sort of context such as whether a short term gain might or might not have any effect and why. But then again the journalist only wanted…

This is one scientist's opinion and as we know there are as many opinions as there are scientists. Probably more.

Roughly a generation after the Second Worldwar the Green Party was founded and there to stay. After another generation the Pirate Party movement comes to live. Seems to me that each generation is - at some point - fed up enough with their elders to band together against them.

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#25

Post by netrus » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:46 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #16

muuh-gnu wrote: post #13

In other news, former German president Roman Herzog, member of the (for now) largest party, the Christian Democratical Union CDU, suggested that having new parties like the Pirates entering parliaments is bad for overall democracy because it is increasing political diversity, and should be combated by again increasing the election threshold, which is now at 5%. According to the interview he gave recently, increasing…

More parties being bad for democracy is extremely funny. It would be nice to see a total abolition of parties, in fact in most democratic constitutions the word 'party' is never mentioned. People should vote for other people, not for parties.

Then you have "the winner takes it all", creating a bipolar system like in the US. No thanks. Parties give some structure in the public debate, and thus are necessary for a democratic discourse.

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#26

Post by jacquesm » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:53 PM UTC

netrus wrote: post #25

jacquesm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More parties being bad for democracy is extremely funny. It would be nice to see a total abolition of parties, in fact in most democratic constitutions the word 'party' is never mentioned. People should vote for other people, not for parties.

Then you have "the winner takes it all", creating a bipolar system like in the US. No thanks. Parties give some structure in the public debate, and thus are necessary for a democratic discourse.

The US has political parties, the two dominant ones keep the rest out creating an illusion of choice.

It's the worst example of party politics.

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#27

Post by biafra » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:53 PM UTC

'They call it "Liquid Democracy" and it involves members making suggestions online which then get bounced around through chat rooms, which they call Pirate Pads, before emerging from cyberspace into the real world as policy.'

Liquid Feedback is a server software (implementing LD for an organization) that allows proxy representation. If I think person X can vote for me on topic Y, I can say so by using LF. And I can change my mind from one minute to another not only every 4 years. Here is a longer explanation:

http://communitywiki.org/LiquidDemocracy

Pirate pads are not chat rooms but Etherpads to work collaboratively on documents (that happen to have also a chat function).

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#28

Post by VinceGuillardi » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:53 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #14

jellicle wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, democracy is the worst system of governance we have, except for all the others. In Greece, voters punished the two main parties who colluded to fuck them over so badly, by voting for other parties. In fact, almost 20% of the parliament is now composed of members of brand new parties - brand new because many voters don't feel their interests are being represented by the older parties. Isn't this result exactly wh…

I think the Greek situation is rather more complex than that it can be summed up by two parties fucking over the voters. Greece (and a whole bunch of other European countries) has a system of governance and a corruption level that is very different from other EU countries, and as such probably should not have been part of the EU to begin with. Now that they're in Greece is in a position to reap the benefits of that f…

>the end result of which will be a much weaker euro. There are no winners in any of these scenarios, only losers

Germany is the winner in this scenario. Having the Euro as a currency is a great boon to their national economy. They were at a trade deficit when they used the DM, but ever since the inception of the Euro, they have been cleaning-up export wise.

Germany benefits from the Eurozone as consumers from EU nation-members can buy German products with no trade impediments. Germany benefits even more from a weak Euro as it makes their products very attractive for purchase from non-Euro countries.

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#29

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 12, 2012, 6:58 PM UTC

muuh-gnu wrote: post #13

In other news, former German president Roman Herzog, member of the (for now) largest party, the Christian Democratical Union CDU, suggested that having new parties like the Pirates entering parliaments is bad for overall democracy because it is increasing political diversity, and should be combated by again increasing the election threshold, which is now at 5%. According to the interview he gave recently, increasing…

[deleted]

Re: Germany's Pirate Party Looks to Win More Seats

#30

Post by _delirium » Sat, May 12, 2012, 7:01 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #26

netrus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you have "the winner takes it all", creating a bipolar system like in the US. No thanks. Parties give some structure in the public debate, and thus are necessary for a democratic discourse.

The US has political parties, the two dominant ones keep the rest out creating an illusion of choice. It's the worst example of party politics.

Some elections in the U.S. are nonpartisan, meaning that no parties are recognized by the electoral officials, or listed on the ballot. For example, the Nebraska state legislature is nonpartisan, and so are a number of cities' mayors, Houston being the largest.

That doesn't keep people from de-facto running as party representatives, though. They can't put their party affiliation on the ballot, but they can say in their speeches which of the national parties they prefer, and parties can issue press releases explaining which of the candidates they support. So it tends towards a two-party, first-past-the-post situation.