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The Ruin of Mumbai

asteriskmag.com

21–30 of 40 posts

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#21
post #12
post #3

In fraught issues like rent control and housing, I often see claims like the one in the article that people moving to cities can see up to a 30% increase in income, but they never seem to factor in the increase in costs, which could be far higher than 30%, leading to a net loss. Same story with global warming claiming additional deaths due to increased temperatures without the corresponding statistic on deaths due to…

There are some pitfalls in comparing percentages like this. Net profit (or disposable income - it’s weird how different the connotations of these terms are) is a much better measure. Consider a farm worker who’s paid $10/day, and pays $1/day for bread and board. They move to the city where they’re paid $13/day and pay $3/day in living expenses. That’s 30% more pay but 300% higher costs. Assuming all else is equal (qu…

You can also have situations (especially in poor countries) where you go from your $10/day but able to survive if work stops, because you can just grow some food for yourself, survive on very little, etc to being absolutely dependent on a salary or social support if work fails.

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#22
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to say... for a city with a population almost that of the entire state of California, this is hardly anything. To put that in perspective, California spends 200-300 billion each year.

How do you figured that? Average salary in california is around 10 times that of mumbai and population of greater mumbai is slightly more than half california. That adjusts the comparison to roughly 140 billion mumvai vs 200 billion california. So mumbai is marginally more efficient than one of the worst run us states by roughetrics. I suspect it should be considered worse because corruption at 8k a year average inco…

PPP doesn't really translate to municipal budgets, and it's also painfully clear from the grandparent that the huge budget doesn't translate to much, even after PPP comparisons.

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#23
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the BMC (Municipal Corporation) is considered quite ineffective/corrupt/lazy by most citizens, despite being the richest municipal body in the world Well when one divide total budget by population per person won't be much. Economist and even politicians mentioned as much that Indian tax revenues per person are 1/20th of first world but regardless they do think they deserve facilities comparable to developed nations…

Yep that’s a fair point, the tax burden in India in general is pretty skewed, however worth noting that Mumbai pays a fairly significant amount of it (especially when factoring in indirect and non income taxes). Iirc BMC’s budget is very directly from taxes (very little/no loans or other handouts, though I could be wrong about this). (Edit: quick googling shows property tax to be the biggest current revenue stream si…

Well the flip side of spending all tax revenue of city like Mumbai locally instead of statewide or nation wide there will be even more lopsided development which turns to ever more people coming to Mumbai making infrastructure, pollution and so many other problems worse.

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#24
post #14
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

INR 59,954 crore is around 7 Billion USD.

I was going to say... for a city with a population almost that of the entire state of California, this is hardly anything. To put that in perspective, California spends 200-300 billion each year.

Many people seem to struggle with the difference between absolute and proportional values.

Something similar in my country (Nigeria). Many people keep pointing out that Lagos, our most crowded and number one commercial city, has an annual budget of roughly $1 billion, meaning there should be world-class infrastructure.

Until I point out that $1 billion is roughly $50 annually per person. Even accounting for labor and cost of living differences, you need at least 20x that before you start expecting world-class infrastructure.

Sure, labor is cheaper, but power plants, buses, and trains are mostly imported and cost a damn lot. No way you’re getting first-world infrastructure with third-world budget and taxes.

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#25
post #14
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

INR 59,954 crore is around 7 Billion USD.

I was going to say... for a city with a population almost that of the entire state of California, this is hardly anything. To put that in perspective, California spends 200-300 billion each year.

By purchase parity, 1 dollar is about 23 rupees while exchange rate is around 80. So roughly 4x multiplier is needed to .

In purchase parity, it's 27 billions dollar vs 200-300 billion of California. Still 10x less.

I wanted to complain about bangalore garbage and traffic but it will take too much space.

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#26

The height restrictions and rent control are overstated. If they were a blocker to slum redevelopment, then similar cities like Delhi (or even neighboring Thane and Navi Mumbai, or nearby Pune) would be equally as decrepit, which they are not. The major issue is land procurement and failure to minimize encroachment. India, being a democracy, is limited by public demands. As cities became economic growth engines, a lo…

What do you make of the DDC trying to demolish the mosque in Delhi currently then?

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#27

The height restrictions and rent control are overstated. If they were a blocker to slum redevelopment, then similar cities like Delhi (or even neighboring Thane and Navi Mumbai, or nearby Pune) would be equally as decrepit, which they are not. The major issue is land procurement and failure to minimize encroachment. India, being a democracy, is limited by public demands. As cities became economic growth engines, a lo…

What do you make of the DDC trying to demolish the mosque in Delhi currently then?

Mixed bag.

They shouldn't have demolished the historic Akhondji masjid (it is truly ancient), but the slum built around it was built on land that was encroached on.

Delhi is ruled by the opposition AAP.

It's not like Temples don't get demolished either [0], and 4 temples were demolished along with the Akhondji Masjid [1] during the Mehrauli demolishment drive.

If it was truly egregious Islamophobia, Indian allies like the UAE and KSA would have called it out like they did Nupur Sharma's extremely insensitive statement 2 years ago.

[0] - https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/city/delhi/delhi-...

[1] - https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/delhi-news/mosque-temp...

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#28
post #15

I have never lived in Bombay, but my parents grew up there, and our family history there goes back to before it was even a city. Indians have an insatiable appetite for centralized economic planning that has done nothing but hurt the country. For me, it's inexplicable, but it's often like trying to talk at a wall. It makes American NIMBY's look like transit advocates. And for all the fascination with bureaucracy, the…

This comment is almost entirely ahistorical. India as a country is about 75 years old. It’s ridiculously young. India is the largest democracy in the world despite having half as many official languages as American states, and an order of magnitude more spoken languages, cultures and religions. Despite this India has remained a largely integral state, has seen authoritarian rule and seen it off in a few years, unlike…

> Your vision of India is a mirror house vision of a 50 year old India at best.

Well realistically, this is when my family left, but the article seems to cite the same pain points today.

Also, I think this comment exemplifies some of the issues with Indian society. The moment one levels a criticism, suddenly, the rather pointed criticism is taken as a criticism of society as a whole.

At no point did I criticise India's democracy or accuse it of authoritarianism. There are many centrally planned economies without authoritarianism. Nor is central planning associated with military juntas / coups. At no point did I say anything negative about India's growth story, which as you point out, is astronomical, but slower than China.

Overall, I think India's great. I'm just pointing out some issues that I see. It would behoove you, and Indians more generally, to listen to the criticism without getting confused over what's being criticised.

Also, the existence of centralized planning in a more concentrated form in China does not mean the centralized planning in India cannot be criticized. Again, we must stay tuned to exactly the criticisms I've outlined, not strawman.

> India, on the other hand has a highly federal system of government. Arguably the last few years have seen a lot more top down management but that’s a result of the party in federal government also being in power in most state governments.

The US, Australia, Canada, etc all have federal systems. This is hardly an excuse.

> And in terms of municipal actions the Indian state is addressing those issues to the point where there are many functions where the Indian equivalent are significantly faster than the U.S. Try getting a passport in the U.S. today vs India.

How long does an Indian passport take?

> India has also drastically improved government distributions. While the US government was sending literal checks through the mail over COVID Indian monetary benefits are now directly deposited in a bank account.

Again, however ahead India is of the US in terms of bank deposits, does not detract from the criticism that the Indian state and Indian culture as a whole is very into central bureaucracy. Actually, I think the check thing is yet another good example. Checks are an extremely distributed form of payment. Basically anyone can write a check on a piece of paper and banks will accept it (within reason). I can have anyone print my checks, and as long as my information is correct, the bank will cash it. Moreover, check fraud is taken very seriously, so that people aren't just doing this willy nilly. As a whole, the US is fairly high trust, so this distributed model works well, and has certain advantages, such as being able to cash checks anywhere, the ability to easily transfer a check to another payee (just write a new endorsement), etc. I'm not sure what Indian system you're referring to, but for me personally, I like being able to hand over money without having to give my life's information to private brokerages.

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#29
post #15

I have never lived in Bombay, but my parents grew up there, and our family history there goes back to before it was even a city. Indians have an insatiable appetite for centralized economic planning that has done nothing but hurt the country. For me, it's inexplicable, but it's often like trying to talk at a wall. It makes American NIMBY's look like transit advocates. And for all the fascination with bureaucracy, the…

> our family history there goes back to before it was even a city

Same - my Pathareprabhu ancestors have been in the area since about the 13th century, when the only other people in the region were the Koli fisherfolk.

Re: The Ruin of Mumbai

#30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is almost entirely ahistorical. India as a country is about 75 years old. It’s ridiculously young. India is the largest democracy in the world despite having half as many official languages as American states, and an order of magnitude more spoken languages, cultures and religions. Despite this India has remained a largely integral state, has seen authoritarian rule and seen it off in a few years, unlike…

> Your vision of India is a mirror house vision of a 50 year old India at best. Well realistically, this is when my family left, but the article seems to cite the same pain points today. Also, I think this comment exemplifies some of the issues with Indian society. The moment one levels a criticism, suddenly, the rather pointed criticism is taken as a criticism of society as a whole. At no point did I criticise India…

> How long does an Indian passport take?

I'd applied for a passport in the summer of 2020, during the height of the COVID lockdown. I could get an appointment at the passport office within a week (socially distanced, reduced capacity), and had my passport in hand the next week. Prepandemic I'd say the average was about 10 days, for passport renewal. A fresh passport takes more time since it requires 'police verification', where a cop from your local police station goes physically to your address to verify you actually live there, and gets attestations from your neighbors on how long you've lived at this address.

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