Live data from Hacker News

Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

raptori.dev

51–60 of 77 posts

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#51
Shitty pop-psychology is shitty pop-psychology.

A more realistic "impostor syndrome" is the IT idea of 'fake it till you make it'. In other words, its a tacit admission you dont know shit and you're googling for ideas until you get something that sticks. And yeah, most IT is like this. Even Stack Overflow is a meme - search here and copy/paste regardless the quality.

And, well, it's not impostor syndrome if you're a know-nothing idiot.

And the crap about Dunning-Kruger.. It just serves a way to shut experts up and dismiss their experiences and knowledge. Its basically the pseudo-science crap way of saying "My quiet ignorance is better than your direct assurances".

Then again, business types also believe in shit like forcing all employees in Myers–Briggs Type Indicator crap, and then comparing that across everyone. And if you know anything about psychology, you don't do longitudinal comparisons of this sort of crap.

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The majority of people can actually gauge their competence and knowledge accurately. I know plenty of C-suite folks who must be in the minority then.

Have you considered that you might not be able to gauge peoples competence and knowledge accurately? Statistically, if you are observing so manly outliers that is likely to be the case. Hope this helps!

Ahhh this must be it.

The CEO babbling about how AI "works" must be knowledgeable and competent, and I, an engineer actually working on our AI product, am the idiot.

Thanks for the help!

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#53

> To find the sweet spot between impostor syndrome and overconfidence, you first need to understand that you can make mistakes without it reflecting on your competence. > Failure is not something to be feared—it’s an opportunity to learn and improve. These pithy quotes can be good for shaking someone out of a perfectionism-induced freeze, but they take the concept too far. Failure is not a good outcome and should be…

importantly, not all risk is equal and part of the evaluation shouldn't be feel good quotes but rather an examination of the level of risk involved. To give a crude example.

- Your partner says they're ok with trying a threesome.

- Your partner says they're ok with trying that new restaurant.

to bring it more inline with tech.

software developers need to be able to safely break things, that's why they don't work directly in production. a hotfix bypasses the normal processes and goes straight to production. It's not that you don't do it, you don't do it without an acknowledgement that the reward outweighs the risk and because you respect the risk you take care to minimize mistakes.

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#55

> To find the sweet spot between impostor syndrome and overconfidence, you first need to understand that you can make mistakes without it reflecting on your competence. > Failure is not something to be feared—it’s an opportunity to learn and improve. These pithy quotes can be good for shaking someone out of a perfectionism-induced freeze, but they take the concept too far. Failure is not a good outcome and should be…

90% of my projects are failures, and the 10% which are successes would have never happened if I was too afraid to start them. The successes looked just as likely to be failures as the actual failures from the outset. I disagree that "failure is bad and should be avoided". The degree to which failure is bad and should be avoided depends entirely on the gravity of the consequences. When taking on an ambitious programmi…

> 90% of my projects are failures, and the 10% which are successes would have never happened if I was too afraid to start them.

You should definitely try things that might fail.

However, failure within those projects should be actively avoided.

These pithy quotes that try to remove any downside from failure are misleading. In business, failure has consequences. You need to understand what's at risk and make a best effort to steer the project toward success.

These over simplified quotes that try to strip all of the downsides away from failure are a cheap trick. Yeah, they convince some people to get past their fears, but they also mislead other people into thinking that there are no consequences.

You need to understand the risks and consequences, not just wave them away with pithy quotes from someone's blog.

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#56

Dunning-Kruger should go the way of the Stanford Prison Experiment. For those who may not know about the latter, it was also largely faked. Guards were coached in how to act, the famous 'Jesus Christ, I'm burning up inside. I can't stand another night!' prisoner was a student who wanted to go study (which he was told he was allowed to, but wasn't) and so he faked a mental breakdown, and so on. Back to Dunning Kruger,…

For colloquial use just replace it with overconfidence which is how this post, and most people use it.

It is a real thing for humans.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/overconfiden...

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could upvote it many times. Failure is not normal and it is speaks badly of you no matter what's the reason. Most people including me are not perfect and it will happen but that doesn't mean failure is alright, that means that we're an problem. The only thing one has any right in their life to ever blame are themselves.

A musician fails to perform a piece hundreds or thousands of times while learning it. A programmer fails to apply a concept many times until they fully understand it. To imply that failure is not normal and not alright is to imply that everybody should be able to perfectly do anything in their life without any prior practice. Clearly, the word "failure" in this context is insufficient, because we all would agree that…

words have connotation and failure does not mean mistake.

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#58
post #6

I think that impostor syndrome is inextricably linked with Dunning-Kruger. I believe that impostor syndrome is a lack of overconfidence in one's abilities- that implies that you have the ability to assess competence and to assess the skills needed for a job or task, and you don't default to "I know I can do it well". When you encounter a novel job or task, you don't immediately assume competence, and you will remain…

Good thoughts! I think there is much more nuance as I disagree with some of your points:

> I believe that impostor syndrome is a lack of overconfidence in one's abilities - that implies that you have the the ability to assess competence --

I think that competence in an ability is not perfectly synchronized with ability-assessment-competence.

I think ability-assessment-incompetence can result in both under- and overconfidence, before accounting for a self-esteem bias. Being underconfident is also an incorrect self-assessment, which doesn't imply ability-assessment-competence.

> If you lacked the ability to assess competence in yourself, then you likely would not have impostor syndrome.

Here I disagree the most. I think impostor syndrome can be the result of ability-assessment-incompetence, somewhat detached from their true competence in the actual abilities involved.

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#59
This is a personal anecdote about this topic so feel free to ignore, but I recently had one of those epiphanies that you only see in movies that is somewhat relevant here.

Background: I'm a software developer that has worked for 30 years professionally and has used computers for at least 40. Languages and technologies range across pretty much everything popular (and many that were not).

I've always considered myself intelligent to very intelligent. I own lots of books, love learning, etc. So much so that I considered it a deep part of my self-image. Except while attending a very good engineering school, I generally considered myself the smartest person in the room (yes, insufferable, really).

Now, internally (stored in one of those places in your mind that you know are there but you just pretend isn't), I knew this wasn't the case. I have a terrible memory and have always seemed to have to work at least twice as hard in math and sciences and still only had a vague understanding of what was going on. Even to this day I can tell you a lot of findings about the fundamentals of computer science theory but I couldn't explain them to you except in broad sketches. And if you asked me specifics about a book I just read I would likely draw a blank. That said, I've had very successful career as a developer.

Recently, I began playing Go more seriously after playing casually for years with another (much higher ranked) player. I've joined a local group, play online regularly, study books, etc. While I previously thought I was a pretty good amateur I was quickly disabused of this notion. I was beaten handily by almost everyone I played. Worse, studying made almost no difference. This caused me a bit of a intellectual breakdown. It was as if what I always knew deep down was actually true: that I'm NOT particularly smart or gifted. That I'm at very best "average" if not below. Go shined a big, bright floodlight on all of those insecurities that I hide from myself. My entire self-image was shattered.

I'm still picking up the pieces of this realization but over the past few months it has radically changed how I deal with other people as well as how I perceive myself. I think I'm a little more understanding, a lot more humble, and maybe a bit more "human". I'm still a successful software developer, but now when I'm studying something new I'm not doing it out of some misguided belief that learning it will somehow make me better than other people, but because it will make me a better software developer that can help solve problems better. I don't treat knowledge as something that I can lord over people to show that I'm smarter than them. And I seem to assume better of people than I did before.

And I still play Go, poorly.

Re: Impostor Syndrome vs. the Dunning-Kruger Effect

#60

This is a personal anecdote about this topic so feel free to ignore, but I recently had one of those epiphanies that you only see in movies that is somewhat relevant here. Background: I'm a software developer that has worked for 30 years professionally and has used computers for at least 40. Languages and technologies range across pretty much everything popular (and many that were not). I've always considered myself…

> Recently, I began playing Go

Yeah I didn't need to read the rest (did anyways) to know where this was going... I played Go with my father in law once. He said to me:

"What, I thought you were supposed to be smart?"

It was indeed humbling. I do not still play Go.

Post reply on HN