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iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

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Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no.. but EU laws only apply to EU territories. the second you step out of EU, EU laws stop applying to you and the laws from whatever country you are in the moment start applying.

The EU law here applies to Apple, not to you. Apple remains in the EU for as long as they have entities in the EU or operate in the EU. Thus Apple must follow EU law for as long as they have not exited the EU market completely.

And apple does follow the law..

Apple devices that are within the EU laws jurisdiction does have access to third-party stores..

apple devices that moved to another jurisdiction are no longer subject to EU laws and therefore no longer have access to third-party stores.

The big question i have is if i with my non-EU iPhone will have access to third-party stores as soon as i step into EU, even if i do not live in EU and i am not a EU citizen.

Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#182
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or worse, imagine realizing you forgot one important app when reaching your destination. Uber doesn't exist in the country you went to? You can now only install this country's taxi app through the App Store since your alternative app marketplace lost its ability to install apps... > However, you must be in the European Union to install alternative app marketplaces and new apps from alternative app marketplaces

I'm confused at the scenario you are presenting. So in this case, you travel out of the EU, but are installing a taxi app from a non-eu country, but the app is only available in the EU?

Maybe my example wasn't the best since Uber is practically in all countries. It has however competitors which also are available in many countries and could be available as apps in this EU only store

Let's get to a more down to earth example then: you break your phone while abroad, you can't buy a new one and reinstall old apps anymore.

Or another one: you forgot to install an application available only on this alternative store before leaving (it's not that crazy, see F-Droid on Android where apps are not always available on the Play Store), you can't install it anymore since you aren't physically in the EU anymore.

Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. They’re following the DMA to a T and because people don’t like that fact, all kinds of loaded language is used to describe the mere act of complying with a law. They might as well call Apple petty for not throwing in an iPhone with the purchase of a MacBook.

"This just in: Legal scholar points out that they are not technically touching the cookie jar." It's trivial to invalidate this non-argument and expose intent, or rather remove the cloak of denyability, by simply witnessing several different inconsistencies. Not merely that such geofenced functions are nothing new, and so there is already a practically infinite body of evidense of established behavior around that, an…

> It's trivial to invalidate this non-argument

Apparently, it's not trivial enough for you to succeed in invalidating it.

“Aggression,” “malicious compliance,” and other such loaded terms in this context are, by their nature, subjective opinions, and opinions will never be substantive enough to refute an argument.

My paying a fine because the law says so, but doing it begrudgingly and not paying a cent more doesn’t make me “aggressive” or “complying maliciously”; it’s just me complying with the law.

I get it; you want your boogie, man, and you’re welcome to have it. But I’m welcome to point out that it doesn’t have any objective merit or value other than to soothe whatever feeling you have that compels you to broadcast it in the first place.

You bringing up VAT settlement betrays how in over your head you are. Not only have you embraced an extremely thorny topic by doing so, but it actively undermines the argument you’re trying to make, making your case all the less credible.

The tax subject is ultimately liable for VAT settlement. But because governments understand that it’s tough to enforce it on an individual level, they prescribe a set of practices for merchants that are, in principle, based on many assumptions. Some governments are more zealous in this than others, closing more possible enforcement loopholes than others; nevertheless, they all prescribe practices.

These assumptions mainly revolve around the country of origin and country of destination of goods and services, customer status and their nexus, and value of the goods and services.

An excellent example is if I, an EU citizen living in the US, visit my home country and purchase goods I intend to take home, then the merchant has to assume I’m subject to VAT and thus will charge me VAT. But when I depart, I can get the VAT back at the tax office at the airport.

Similarly, when I made purchases in my home country for my business when I still lived there, merchants specializing in B2B sales were allowed to sell me the goods without levying VAT on behalf of the government. Others who didn’t specialize in B2B and didn’t have the administrative logistics to handle B2B sales would levy the VAT, and I could then get it back from the government.

Sales tax settlement in the US also falls upon the tax subject, even though there are some fundamental differences between VAT and sales tax. On my tax return, I need to declare any purchases made out of state, and legally, I owe use tax if I purchased goods out of state tax for goods to be used at home.

Simply put, how Apple levies VAT for EU member states has little to do with what Apple wants and everything to do with what the law prescribes on how to treat users. Especially considering Apple acts as an intermediary in the majority of the cases and doesn’t levy VAT on behalf of their own but on behalf of other developers, which is another thorny dimension to this topic. As such, it’s entirely plausible that Apple levies VAT on users in certain situations who don’t owe it and who can ask for a VAT refund.

It doesn’t take a genius to see that it’s very plausible that if it were up to Apple, they wouldn’t levy any VAT because prices in VAT countries show the total after VAT price. It inherently makes it more likely that a sale occurs when that number is lower. They’re just not given much choice in the matter.

In contrast, the DMA provides an obvious provision on who the DMA does or doesn’t apply to. Reasonable minds can differ on how to read a minor part of that provision, but as far as legal language goes, this is about as clear as it gets.

Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. They’re following the DMA to a T and because people don’t like that fact, all kinds of loaded language is used to describe the mere act of complying with a law. They might as well call Apple petty for not throwing in an iPhone with the purchase of a MacBook.

Are they continuing to accept your EU payment method after 30 days? Then they're still doing business with you in the EU and the DMA should still apply.

If I vacation in the US and use my EU payment method to pay for a coffee in the US, am I doing business in the US or in the EU? How do you think the tax nexus plays out in that case?

Do you think the coffee shop owes income or sales tax to the country where the bank issuing my payment method is established? What if I am from EU country A but my bank is located in EU country B? Is A or B going to claim nexus?

I think there’s no need to be coy here because we both know that that merchant isn’t going to have to pay a dime to a government entity outside of the US and neither would I in this example, at least not insofar it is related to my purchase of the coffee.

Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#185
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU jurisdiction ends at EU borders They still charge me EU prices outside though.

It’s malicious because they’ve done more work than necessary to put limitations on the user. They already know what region an account is in. If they just said “Ok, EU account, turn on the flags” that would be less engineering effort. Even if they increased verification of things like where you actually are relative your account at signup. But this is them engineering this solution to make sure the secret sauce doesn’…

on the other hand.. apple is against third-party stores..

they do not want then, so they will only make then available were they are forced to..

only place they are forced to is EU, so they made sure the third-party stores only work on the places that they are required by law..

if apple had any say in this there would be no third-party stores anywhere..]

this is completely the opposite of other geo-fenced functions that apple want tom make available but cant because some reason or another, usually local laws.

like the ECG on the apple watch.. they did not had it available everywhere, but if you enabled the function in a country that allowed it to be enabled you could keep using in other countries that did not had it available yet because the law in those countries did not forced then to disable it. but there were countries where you could not enable it even if your watch supported.

same thing here but the other way around.. apple will enable third-party store only where they have to and disable everywhere else.. they could keep then enable when you leave but they do not want to, hell they do not want third-party stores at all even in EU, they only have it there because EU law forced then to have it..

Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#187
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, a lot of people like FAANG products and use them daily. Imagine taking away your toddler's favorite toy. Forever.

You are joking if you think that Facebook being down would cause protests.

There was a year of protests over a 0.02 EUR/liter fuel tax.

Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they continuing to accept your EU payment method after 30 days? Then they're still doing business with you in the EU and the DMA should still apply.

If I vacation in the US and use my EU payment method to pay for a coffee in the US, am I doing business in the US or in the EU? How do you think the tax nexus plays out in that case? Do you think the coffee shop owes income or sales tax to the country where the bank issuing my payment method is established? What if I am from EU country A but my bank is located in EU country B? Is A or B going to claim nexus? I think…

That's a poor comparison because Apple isn't a local business. They're everywhere.

And to the extent that they act as if they were localized, they continue to treat EU customers as if they were in the EU until the customer chooses to change region. Selling to them through the EU app store, charging EU prices, with EU policies.

Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#189
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I misunderstand, the apps still work? They just can't be updated after 30 days and you can't install new apps from the third party stores.

No, you understand it correctly. People are just being dramatic because they’re not getting what they want. The DMA doesn’t even stipulate a 30 day provision, just a stipulation that it applies to people who live or are located in the EU. There’s a bit of wiggle room on how to read that (i.e., people who live in the EU, people who are located in the EU, people who live or are located in the EU) and Apple chose the mi…

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Re: iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

#190
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you turn off location services, and use a european VPN, if you maintain access. If you do not have access, I would wonder if they would run across the problem google ran into with private browsing, that people expect to have privacy. In other words, if you turn off location services, that apple will not track your location and should have (legal) no way of knowing if you are inside or outside of the EU.

The phone still needs to know which country you are in so it can follow local laws and regulations. Apple doesn’t need to know where you are because the phone can enforce their rules offline.

"The phone" doesn't need to know anything about anything, and it's up to the user and/or any web services they use to follow local laws. Historically, physical objects have not needed to change their behavior when moving across national borders.
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