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Responding to Beggars

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Re: Responding to Beggars

#81

Post by jtheory »

robocat wrote: post #37
ido wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually enjoy seeing tourists get taken advantage of, and actively encourage it with my own behaviour. Why?

Hard to explain - however I don't mean in a Schadenfreude way... E.g. vendor selling something for 10x what a local would pay. I don't haggle much and admire chutzpah. If someone steals my wallet because that is the only income they can get, I won't like it (but I am not about to go hungry, get rickets or fail to get healthcare). Obviously hard to delineate what is 'bad', or what are downstream effects.

I had my wallet stolen several years ago -- I set it on the bar at a cafe momentarily while paying, and somehow left without it (maybe someone subtly laid a paper over it? maybe I was just distracted?) and it was gone when I realized about 30 seconds later and came back in.

I can't say I admired the chutzpah, though.

The thief took a minor risk, earned less than 20 euros, and cost me days worth of my time and more than 100x that amount of money, to replace documents I hadn't realized would be so difficult to replace (the big one: my US driver's license, and I didn't live in the US anymore; replacing the US credit cards was also non-trivial, but less expensive).

The small amount of cash they got was about commensurate with the risk they took (fairly small); but the waste entailed was huge. I would much rather have been mugged and had my cash taken, and my watch as well -- i.e., items valuable to the mugger, not simply my wallet (which contained things mostly only valuable to me). Or they could have tossed the cashless wallet in a trashcan nearby. They didn't (I searched them all).

The real cost to society of this kind of theft and waste is not so much monetary; it's more psychological. That experience burned into my head fairly well that there are plenty of people around who care so little about me, they'll happily take whatever they can from me, regardless of the suffering it causes.

I have a suspicion that it's the series of experiences like this that turn people from political liberals to conservatives as they age -- they feed easily into racism and classism, they turn us from thinking "how can I help people who need it" to "fuck 'em -- they'll do the same to me if they could". Etc..

Re: Responding to Beggars

#82

Post by abraxasz »

hej wrote: post #58
Muzza wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am 100% confident that deporting all foreign beggars in Sweden will solve the problem of foreign beggars in Sweden. I don't really care if this doesn't get to the "bottom of the problem" or whatever. I (or the Swedish people in general) simply cannot be held responsible for the suffering of the entire fucking world. Your links don't make any sense. The DDR used slave labor? Ingvar Kamprad uses various tax avoidance…

You (and I) are responsible if you are enjoying your privileges while – through no fault of their own - others suffer. Sweden and the west got rich through luck and exploitation. You are privileged. You are lucky. Recognize that and act on it.

I'm extremely happy to see that there are still generous people around. You see, I'm African, and when I see the current mess in my continent, I think that we should do something about it.

Since you disagree with Muzza, I would suggest that we create a partnership in which we bring every african beggar to your country (Sweden?). That's a lot, and it'll probably severely mess up your country, but hey, here's your opportunity to act on your words!

/sarcasm

On a more serious note, would you want all the beggars in the world to go to Sweden? Why not? Oh, because it's too much and it wouldn't be good for Sweden right? Well every person has a different tolerance threshold for "what is good for Sweden". Maybe someone would argue with you that making Sweden an asylum for all the world's beggars is the ultimate way of repairing for your sins, and then call you a fascist for not wanting to do it.

Well you're doing exactly the same with Muzza. What you consider something very reasonable (hosting Roumanian beggars and providing them with apartments or whatever) is seen as unacceptable by someone else.

I guess I disliked your patronizing tone: people have different opinions and tolerance, and yours is no better or worse than any other.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#83

Post by jakobe »

When someone asks me for money, I just give them money. I dont care what they do with it. I think people complaining about being deceived are just looking for excuses for being greedy. The end result is the same, no matter if the beggar is honest or not: i'm more happy because I feel generous, the beggar's more happy because he got money. The first time I relised that the story I got told was a lie I was upset, but I realised that it doesn't matter.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#84

Post by DrJokepu »

johnsea wrote: post #80
gioele wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

Read the parent post again, no problem with Bulgarian people in general. What's with your xenophobia/racism haunch? It is not unreasonable to discuss such effects due to relative open - e.g. compared to US - borders. Last year in Germany I myself saw 'gangs of beggars'. While not a problem, it annoys me when on touristic places you'll get asked for money every two minutes from one of the (romanian) women with child.…

The same reason you don't say black beggars or Mexican criminals. The racial or national background of these people might be interesting for sociologists but it's unhelpful in everyday discussions. It strips people of their dignity, whether it's intentional or not. Don't be that guy.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#85

Post by twelvechairs »

Muzza wrote: post #47
wilfra wrote: post #29

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsi…

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

Downvoting because its ridiculous to compare the situation in Sweden with that of Thailand (the difference is immense), because it engages in leftist bashing (I'm sure there must be very few 'leftists' if any who really say "lets build new apartments for foreign criminals whilst Swedes get nothing", although this is exactly what you imply they say), and because you claim to answer a complex and nuanced issue with a single sweeping generalisation.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#86

Post by radu_floricica »

jakobe wrote: post #83

When someone asks me for money, I just give them money. I dont care what they do with it. I think people complaining about being deceived are just looking for excuses for being greedy. The end result is the same, no matter if the beggar is honest or not: i'm more happy because I feel generous, the beggar's more happy because he got money. The first time I relised that the story I got told was a lie I was upset, but I…

And this is why I hate begging so much. It's a transaction - the beggar gets the money, you get the feeling good. But try to take this to its logical conclusion in a free market situation and you'll understand why the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I've seen a little girl being taught to beg once. She was as beautiful and clean as a young girl can be, and she was with a slightly older boy in a subway. He was leading her by the hand and showing her the ropes... what to say, how to say it, how to act... Most people there thought that it was so very charming and paid well for the feeling. All I did was to try hard as I could not to hit something or somebody, because I was watching a soul being mutilated.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#87

Post by shocks »

In the UK we have The Big Issue. It's a magazine only sold by homeless people, for £2.50 per magazine. The sellers buy each magazine for £1.25. The sellers are trained, sign a code of conduct and wear badges so you can recognise them easily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Issue

I like this approach because I know that they have some degree of control. For example, they can't spend all the money on booze/drugs because otherwise they can't purchase more stock. It's a start.

That said, I like Stallman's method. I might try that sometime.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#88

Post by radu_floricica »

gioele wrote: post #69
Muzza wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

I'm Romanian, and I have no problem with Muzza's comment. He's perfectly right. If anything, we can breathe a bit easier here in Romania with all the gangs gone to better countries.

I do disagree though that deporting is the way to go. The problem is real, and shoving it under the carpet doesn't really solve much of it. What is needed is an EU-wide solution, and it needs to be well-thought and well implemented, because the problem isn't easier.

We've had a lot of negative feedback here in Romania because of the various criminals we exported to Italy. To my surprise when I went to visit Rome I found surprisingly large, very prosper and very hard-working Romanian minority. Yes, we exported beggars and criminals, but the number of "legitimate" immigrants was dwarfing them.

This is the main purpose of an open EU - to move labor, capital and markets where they are naturally needed. I'm pretty sure even northern countries like Germany, France or Holland (and quite possibly even Sweden) benefit from highly trained immigrants from Eastern Europe. I personally know Romanian doctors who lives in each of those countries. Sadly, Romania can't afford to retain good doctors - but this is how an open market works.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#89

Post by no_more_death »

I keep a couple of gift cards in my wallet and hand them out if someone's in trouble. I tell them there's money on it but not how much. Obviously, someone could still sell the gift card, but the buyer will have to take him at his word.
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