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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#591

Post by richrichie »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #186
richrichie wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Didn't realize it was NATO troops committing genocide in the Balkans and invading Georgia and Ukraine.

It is NATO that is fighting in Ukraine. It is they who have been active in Ukraine since 2008. Without NATO’s active involvement so many Ukrainians would not be dead.

Canada joining Warsaw pact with the prospect of Russian missiles and troops stationed there and KGB organising a coup to remove their PM to install a puppet will elicit a similar (or perhaps worse given the track record) response from the US.

And yes NATO tried to pull the same Ukraine stunt in South Ossetia. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/12/putin.georgia

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#592

Post by whereismyacc »

dralley wrote: post #573
whereismyacc wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To ukraine? I thought the idea was that Ukrainian pilots would be trained on f16s instead because the stockpiles of those are many times bigger?

The F-16 training and delivery is already public, but it has been hinted at for a while that Ukrainians were being trained on Gripen also and that once Sweden was in NATO they'd be able to send some jets.

Oh interesting, I guess I just haven't been keeping up. I'm no military dude, but from what little I've read that it is hard to coordinate between different kinds of fighter jets in the same air force, so it would have been preferable to get more f16s.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#593

Post by luuurker »

nikolay wrote: post #590
luuurker wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck to those launching Sarmats too as they'll have to stop the Tridents, Minutemen, M51, etc. It's important to remember that while they don't make weekly threats, there are three NATO countries with land/sea based nuclear weapons. Realistically, there's no defending from nuclear weapons. That's why MAD, while crazy, works.

It doesn't have to be even Sarmat; it could be Poseidon - options are plentiful. I doubt anyone would have the balls to respond to a nuclear attack. The issue is who's crazier to do the first one, and if one truly believes Russia and Putin are crazy evil, then one should act respectively! So far, I don't see intelligent behavior from the West - I see arrogance, which always has a high cost!

You expect everyone to bend over because Putin/Russia decided to go down the "I'm a mad man, give me what I want or I'll nuke you" route... that's just not how the world works. I hope you don't use this tactic yourself, because you'll end up with a broken nose (or worse) if you do it to the wrong guy.

There is certainly arrogance from the west, but what do you call what Russia is doing? They literally make threats to nuclear powers as if they're untouchable. The fact you don't see this should tell you that you're biased here.

Sarmat and Posidon are "doomsday" weapons. Use them against a small country like the UK or France and they have little to lose. Use them against the US and you're likely to be wiped out. As you've said, options are plentiful, so we should all be very careful and do our best to avoid war (all = includes Russia).

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#594

Post by [deleted] »

rainworld wrote: post #574
red-iron-pine wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the irony is that NATO is pushing Germany to aggressively and quickly re-arm if NATO wants America in then they need to do something about an angry orange political candidate...

>aggressively and quickly re-arm On top of that, there's inflation and the value-added tax, which mean that, once all the extra costs have been covered, only about €50 to €70 billion will be left over to spend on actual hardware. "The longer you have this money sit around somewhere, the longer factors like inflation and interest payments have to eat away at this pile," Loss said. [0] There has been some criticism fro…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#595

Post by ProjectArcturis »

richrichie wrote: post #591
ProjectArcturis wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't realize it was NATO troops committing genocide in the Balkans and invading Georgia and Ukraine.

It is NATO that is fighting in Ukraine. It is they who have been active in Ukraine since 2008. Without NATO’s active involvement so many Ukrainians would not be dead. Canada joining Warsaw pact with the prospect of Russian missiles and troops stationed there and KGB organising a coup to remove their PM to install a puppet will elicit a similar (or perhaps worse given the track record) response from the US. And yes NA…

Without NATO's involvement, far more Ukrainians would be dead, their children kidnapped, their possessions stolen by Putin's thugs.

If the KGB did achieve a coup in Canada, we probably would invade to put it down. The differences are 1) Euromaidan was a popular uprising, not a coup, and 2) the whole thing would have been over in a week, instead of bogging down into a stalemate and humiliating our army.

Your link is just quoting Putin complaining that Bush wouldn't help him with his coup in Georgia.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#596

Post by nikolay »

luuurker wrote: post #593
nikolay wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be even Sarmat; it could be Poseidon - options are plentiful. I doubt anyone would have the balls to respond to a nuclear attack. The issue is who's crazier to do the first one, and if one truly believes Russia and Putin are crazy evil, then one should act respectively! So far, I don't see intelligent behavior from the West - I see arrogance, which always has a high cost!

You expect everyone to bend over because Putin/Russia decided to go down the "I'm a mad man, give me what I want or I'll nuke you" route... that's just not how the world works. I hope you don't use this tactic yourself, because you'll end up with a broken nose (or worse) if you do it to the wrong guy. There is certainly arrogance from the west, but what do you call what Russia is doing? They literally make threats to…

No, Putin is not a madman - he was cornered. These are the facts! The West is slowly but surely bringing us at least WWIII, if not extinction! The West is always greedy and salivates over Russia's colossal territory and resources! And always gets hurt! This time, it could hurt the entire civilization, though!

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#597

Post by partiallypro »

xpl wrote: post #462
baxtr wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have many Serbian friends going for holidays in Croatia. Unthinkable 30 years ago. So maybe, in 50 years from now, Russia will join NATO, too?

Russia had in fact expressed desire to join NATO in Putin's early days as a president. Apparently he wanted to fast-track, so it might have hurt his ego somehow, when he was told that Russia is no special. https://web.archive.org/web/20240228155601/https://www.thegu... George Robertson, a former Labour defence secretary who led Nato between 1999 and 2003, said Putin made it clear at their first meeting that he wanted…

Putin had no intention to join NATO, and knew he wouldn't get in. The only reason he would want in is to do the exact same thing that Russia does on the UN security council as a permanent member, which is to stifle and blockade. There are some current NATO members that hold things up, largely Turkey. Coincidentally a large number of smuggled items that get around sanctions to get to Russia...go through Turkey.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#598

Post by shrimp_emoji »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #537
AlGrothendieck wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Secretary General, Ismay is also credited as having been the first person to say that the purpose of NATO was "to keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down," a saying that has since become a common way to describe the dynamics of NATO

the irony is that NATO is pushing Germany to aggressively and quickly re-arm if NATO wants America in then they need to do something about an angry orange political candidate...

Germany will be dead in 50 years by demographic suicide anyway. (Like China, conveniently.)

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#599

Post by partiallypro »

Sammi wrote: post #585
hnarn wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So maybe, in 50 years from now, Russia will join NATO, too? While not technically impossible, practically this is very hard to see. Unless Russia becomes a market liberal, well functioning democracy, it will not happen -- and what are the odds of that? Russia had the chance after the collapse of the Soviet Union, instead it devolved into a plutocracy and what is essentially a one-party state in anything but name. R…

Russia will need to break up into smaller pieces before it is palatable for nato to absorb. Too geographically big right now. USA cannot tolerate anyone else in nato being big in any way that rivals them.

Geographical size means nothing and isn't a challenge to the US, Russia's economy isn't that important to the global economy. The Russian economy is smaller than Canada's and Canada is not only a NATO member but also geographically large.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#600

Post by xpl »

partiallypro wrote: post #597
xpl wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia had in fact expressed desire to join NATO in Putin's early days as a president. Apparently he wanted to fast-track, so it might have hurt his ego somehow, when he was told that Russia is no special. https://web.archive.org/web/20240228155601/https://www.thegu... George Robertson, a former Labour defence secretary who led Nato between 1999 and 2003, said Putin made it clear at their first meeting that he wanted…

Putin had no intention to join NATO, and knew he wouldn't get in. The only reason he would want in is to do the exact same thing that Russia does on the UN security council as a permanent member, which is to stifle and blockade. There are some current NATO members that hold things up, largely Turkey. Coincidentally a large number of smuggled items that get around sanctions to get to Russia...go through Turkey.

Yes, that is a plausible explanation.

On the other hand, I have witnessed how the Putin's rhetoric made a U-turn over those dozens of years — from "Fukuyama-level" liberal and pro-Western (early Putin), to "geopolitical realist" and pretty much anti-Western (as of today).

I don't know how much this reflects his actual worldview transformation (if there was any), but I have reasons to believe that there is no smoke without fire.

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