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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#581

Post by tim333 »

quickthrowman wrote: post #569
baxtr wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have many Serbian friends going for holidays in Croatia. Unthinkable 30 years ago. So maybe, in 50 years from now, Russia will join NATO, too?

> So maybe, in 50 years from now, Russia will join NATO, too? Probably not. Russian history for the last several hundred years is a series of kings, emperors, and dictators. Massacres and purges. The entire peasantry was only freed from slavery 150 years ago. Being ruled by hereditary monarchs and dictators for so long has fundamentally changed Russian culture to be vastly different from the West. IMO it would take a…

There's been quite a trend in the long term to democracy and the like if with blips. Like in this graph of countries that are democacies, 200 years ago 2.5%, fifty years ago 30%, now 61%. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/countries-democracies-non...

I get the impression Russians would like a more modern system but have a job shifting Putin. But he won't be around for ever.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#582

Post by luuurker »

nikolay wrote: post #403

[flagged]

You have Putin making claims about borders based on his own and very selective version of history, high ranking politicians (and their media) making threats about invading or nuking other countries, and of course there's their invasion of Ukraine... Obviously people and countries will reconsider their position and act.

This is a reaction to Russia's behaviour. We can't behave like dicks and then cry when people that don't like our behaviour are not our friends or try to protect themselves.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#583

Post by riku_iki »

ianburrell wrote: post #308
sspiff wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment is referring to the US pressuring all European NATO members to abandon plans to acquire Saab or Dassault jets in favour of its own F35.

The F-35 is better and cheaper than Gripen or Rafale. Everyone who can buy F-35 is doing so. There were countries that switched when allowed to buy F-35. The Gripen's problem is that it is expensive for a light fighter. The other problem is that uses an American engine and US can control export. There aren't many countries that can't buy F-35 but can buy Gripen. Brazil is the big one. The French Rafale is having more…

Gripen is much cheaper to operate at least per official numbers.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#584

Post by rightbyte »

moogly wrote: post #510
rightbyte wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"NATO standards" is a meaningless technicality. NATO is more like a political suicide pact. The parade troops are just a side show. There is no public meta-discussion about the issue at all except among greens and socialists. Try talking to some good friends about the prospect of actually fighting in a war. The difference between the public facade of the elite pretending stuff and my "experienced reality" is psychosi…

[flagged]

Do you think there is a general "pro-war psyops" ongoing or are these internet people real? I don't get where they all came from. Like, from nowhere. I mean, most of the gov. parties want to send weapons to Netanyahu. It is like they pretended to not be insane to suddenly rip their shirts off. And all these people with insane ideas on the internet. But I don't see almost any around me.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#585

Post by Sammi »

hnarn wrote: post #475
baxtr wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have many Serbian friends going for holidays in Croatia. Unthinkable 30 years ago. So maybe, in 50 years from now, Russia will join NATO, too?

> So maybe, in 50 years from now, Russia will join NATO, too? While not technically impossible, practically this is very hard to see. Unless Russia becomes a market liberal, well functioning democracy, it will not happen -- and what are the odds of that? Russia had the chance after the collapse of the Soviet Union, instead it devolved into a plutocracy and what is essentially a one-party state in anything but name. R…

Russia will need to break up into smaller pieces before it is palatable for nato to absorb. Too geographically big right now. USA cannot tolerate anyone else in nato being big in any way that rivals them.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#586

Post by ethbr1 »

euroderf wrote: post #524
ethbr1 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, abandoning our Kurdish allies (and before them, our Hmong allies) is an ongoing American theme. I had a good Kurdish friend who came over on a US carrier after we abandoned them after the Gulf War...

Isn't Kurdistan still currently the largest stateless state (so to speak) ?

That's probably a complicated slicing of "stateless state". Racial? Ethnic? Linguistic? Religious?

I'm guessing it would be something approaching "associated peoples who are part of a state, but who have collectively demonstrated a desire for an independent state"?

There are ~40M Kurds.

Off the top of my head, Palestinians, Uyghurs, Basques, but I'm sure I'm missing a ton.

There are 70M+ Tamils.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#587

Post by rightbyte »

sorenjan wrote: post #578
rightbyte wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was almost no debate. The elite made it a fait accompli and labeled nay sayers as traitors. There is this major pretend that they have popular backing of joining NATO eventhough the sentiment against it is really strong. There was some demands for a referendum, but it was shut down in fear of "fake news" etc.

67.8% of the respondents was positive to a Swedish Nato membership in 2023. https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/demo...

Ye very convenient polls.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#588

Post by luuurker »

nikolay wrote: post #411
u320 wrote: post #293

One thing that isn't mentioned a lot in connection to this: Sweden and Denmark has a VERY violent history. Hundreds of years of wars. It is said to be the worst conflict in all of human history. Now we are allied and committed to defend each other. That's a huge thing for peace.

[flagged]

Good luck to those launching Sarmats too as they'll have to stop the Tridents, Minutemen, M51, etc. It's important to remember that while they don't make weekly threats, there are three NATO countries with land/sea based nuclear weapons.

Realistically, there's no defending from nuclear weapons. That's why MAD, while crazy, works.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#589

Post by nikolay »

luuurker wrote: post #582
nikolay wrote: post #403

[flagged]

You have Putin making claims about borders based on his own and very selective version of history, high ranking politicians (and their media) making threats about invading or nuking other countries, and of course there's their invasion of Ukraine... Obviously people and countries will reconsider their position and act. This is a reaction to Russia's behaviour. We can't behave like dicks and then cry when people that…

How about the agreement not to expand NATO? Or Minsk agreements? It's so funny that people talk about Article 5, but don't really know what it really says! If Russia attacks Poland, let's say, because Poland gets into Ukraine, you think America will start a WWIII, because of Poland? Get real!

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#590

Post by nikolay »

luuurker wrote: post #588
nikolay wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Good luck to those launching Sarmats too as they'll have to stop the Tridents, Minutemen, M51, etc. It's important to remember that while they don't make weekly threats, there are three NATO countries with land/sea based nuclear weapons. Realistically, there's no defending from nuclear weapons. That's why MAD, while crazy, works.

It doesn't have to be even Sarmat; it could be Poseidon - options are plentiful. I doubt anyone would have the balls to respond to a nuclear attack. The issue is who's crazier to do the first one, and if one truly believes Russia and Putin are crazy evil, then one should act respectively! So far, I don't see intelligent behavior from the West - I see arrogance, which always has a high cost!
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