Sweden Is a NATO Member • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#201

Post by tshaddox » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:58 PM UTC

safgasCVS wrote: post #125

Lemme be the guy who farts in the elevator. Sweden has managed to avoid entangling itself in military conflicts around the world for centuries and by joining NATO it’s got itself security but at the expense of potentially involving itself in conflicts regardless if Swedes want to be involved or not. Anyways it seems popular in Sweden but the naive lefty in me still thinks it’s a shame at the collective high-fiving

> potentially involving itself in conflicts regardless if Swedes want to be involved or not

The Riksdag voted 269–37 to pass the NATO accession bill, and my understanding is that this is representative of the majority of the Swedish population.

Since NATO’s rules regarding military conflict are a rather conspicuous part of NATO membership, I’d hazard to say the Swedes are being quite explicit about the sort of involvement they desire.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#202

Post by ben_w » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:58 PM UTC

miroljub wrote: post #156

MilStdJunkie wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised I had to scroll down to see this. Collective defense means expanded nuclear umbrella from the nuke powers in NATO. TFCMA/WP/Russian doctrine has always allowed a free hand for local commanders to use tactical weapons - a very tempting option to deal with Sweden[1] in the event of a Baltic/Kaliningrad land grab. Admission to NATO is a barrier to that, since the West doesn't exactly believe in small bites whe…

You mean the USA will launch nuclear missiles on Moscow in case Russia launches a missile on Stockholm? NATO or not, I have my doubts here. Does anyone believe any sane US president would risk a destruction of the USA to revenge / protect Sweden?

Failing to respond would invite salami-slicing tactics.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#203

Post by unmole » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:58 PM UTC

KingOfCoders wrote: post #106

apercu wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine that the actual truth to the situation is far more complicated than either of us understand and that NATO provides substantial benefits to the United States.

NATO membership enables the US to have air bases in the UK and Turkey, Navy bases in Spain and Italy, and in other parts of Europe with overflight rights for military planes. Most of the air traffic for the US wars in the middle east goes through Germany, and most injured soldiers go back through Germany [0] Many US soldiers survive because they get through Landstuhl. Ramstein is also rumored to be the primary operat…

> NATO membership enables the US to have air bases in the UK and Turkey

The US has military bases in Qatar, Seychelles, and the Philippines. It's almost as if NATO membership has nothing to do with it.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#204

Post by geysersam » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

alienicecream wrote: post #111

Adding another western European country that's under no threat from anyone to NATO isn't going to do anything. We should be adding backwards countries that share borders with or are targets of major enemies, like Georgia and Taiwan. You can't control the world if all you're doing is protecting yourself and your buddies from yourself and your buddies. We need to get Israel in NATO so that the next time Hezbollah fires…

> we can finally invade Iran

This is either irony or insanity. What good did the two previous US/Nato wars in the region accomplish? Very little if anything at all.

Imagine a world where the US had not sullied its international reputation by invading countries and killing hundreds of thousands.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#205

Post by notahacker » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

Horffupolde wrote: post #177

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Europe is in NATO. NATO nations committing troops would likely drag all of NATO into war with Russia, increasing the chance of a nuclear war. That's not something NATO wants.

So paradoxically, by NATO increasing in members, its non-MAD strength decreases.

Not really, because Sweden wasn't going to send troops to Ukraine as a NATO proxy without a defence pact anyway.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#206

Post by ProjectArcturis » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

tharmas wrote: post #80

avtolik wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the people of Ukraine want to get in NATO for protection, how is this the West being arrogant?

Study great power politics and you will understand what I mean. Russia is a nuclear power. That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger. That's like giving the Mafia boss the finger when he has a gun pointed at your head. You might think that's brave defiance but inarguably that will get you killed. Study the outrage in the USA when Russia put nuclear missile…

I'm sure if we just kneel down and give Putin what he wants, he'll stop with eastern Ukraine.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#207

Post by Terr_ » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #191

Terr_ wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sit well with me, even with the disclaimer. I think it's because: 1. It suggests that there's a distinct objective/legalistic blocker to Ukraine's membership, when in reality the bar is "whatever existing NATO members want." 2. Even if #1 and Ukraine tried it, the benchmark is fundamentally unfair/unrealistic/unworkable. In this particular case, Putin would instantly declare-ownership over more Ukrainian…

Putin is attacking Ukraine as hard as he can. We don't need to worry about provoking more aggression out of him.

That seems like a non-sequitur, did you intend to reply to a different comment/thread?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#208

Post by thatwasunusual » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 6:00 PM UTC

fngjdflmdflg wrote: post #150

KingOfCoders wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland defended Western Europe from a Russian invasion in 1920 and will do so again. Reagan was the last defender of Europe (you can like him or not, having grown up in a left political climate in the 70s of Germany, I didn't), and Reforger '93 was the last time the US seriously considered defending Western Europe. It's clear that at least from Clinton on, the defense of Europe as a necessity for balancing world powe…

US has given money to Ukraine which is in Europe for many years, even before the current war, and has troops stationed in Poland and Germany and trains with a lot of European militaries (for example Finland even before it joined NATO). It is certainly possible that the US has given up on defending Europe just as anything is possible but I don't see any evidence for that. No NATO country has ever been attacked AFAIK s…

> No NATO country has ever been attacked

The 9/11 attacks triggered article 5. It's also the only time that article has been triggered. So far...

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#209

Post by rashthedude » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 6:00 PM UTC

ethbr1 wrote: post #26

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does NATO benefit?

Sweden has a pretty advanced and self-sufficient defense industry for its size. Examples: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stridsvagn_103 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_Launched_Small_Diamet... PS: Not sure why parent is getting down voted for asking a neutral question. Curiosity!

Not a diverse group of readers, as one would suggest.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#210

Post by waffleiron » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 6:00 PM UTC

dralley wrote: post #126

yawnxyz wrote: post #62

Yes, this is a great way to fight against Putin, but... As a Swedish citizen, I think this means in the future Sweden's forces will be dragged into another Iraq-like war down the line. Sooner or later the US or NATO will be the Putin of today, and I don't look forward to that.

The only way that would happen, is if a NATO member was attacked first, on a territory in the North Atlantic. A NATO member who goes off on their own and starts a war isn't entitled to calling NATO to its defense.

False flags are possible though, wouldn’t be the first time a war is started based on lies