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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#191

Post by ProjectArcturis »

Terr_ wrote: post #160
KingOfCoders wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.

This doesn't sit well with me, even with the disclaimer. I think it's because: 1. It suggests that there's a distinct objective/legalistic blocker to Ukraine's membership, when in reality the bar is "whatever existing NATO members want." 2. Even if #1 and Ukraine tried it, the benchmark is fundamentally unfair/unrealistic/unworkable. In this particular case, Putin would instantly declare-ownership over more Ukrainian…

Putin is attacking Ukraine as hard as he can. We don't need to worry about provoking more aggression out of him.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#192

Post by nostrebored »

I get that we've decided 'NATO Good' now -- but are people really so sure that it's sphere of influence is geopolitically stabilizing?

I don't see how it could be. If I were Russia, or an ally of Russia, an expansionist NATO would be galvanizing for me and would accelerate a counterbalance alliance. Creating a potentially entrenched conflict in countries that have surface-to-surface access to Moscow would be in my benefit. Ukraine falls into that category.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#193

Post by [deleted] »

pphysch wrote: post #93
NicoJuicy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden and Finland are in NATO. Leverage from turkey and Hungary is decreasing, if you haven't seen it. Democracy may be slow, but it's still the best system. Additionally, now support for Ukraine can increase and it should go faster. God, I really hope it goes a lot faster...

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[deleted]

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#194

Post by malermeister »

freedomben wrote: post #159
hnthrowaway0328 wrote: post #141

It would be nice if EU seek independency from US eventually.

I don't necessarily disagree as IMHO a diverse world that more accurately reflects the desires of local populations is a good thing, but I'd be curious to know why you would like the EU to seek independency from the US. What do you mean by that? Economic or more? Do you mean more home-grown tech companies for example?

Not the person you responded to, but I agree that the EU needs a bit more independence from the US.

To me, it's mostly about being able to stand up for ourselves on a world stage - ideally through a common EU military that is strong enough to deter adversaries even without US support.

My main reason is the instability of the American political climate and the way every four years there's an election between a centrist and an extremist. Trump has already threatened to invite Putin to invade other NATO countries [0]. We can't risk being dependent on this madman.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68266447

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#195

Post by thatwasunusual »

dataflow wrote: post #131
SamBam wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually take a look at the text of the treaty? It's very short and readable. Article 5 is what you're looking for. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht...

Yes? It says "will assist" and "such action as it deems necessary". That doesn't obligate them to provide a military response. What makes you believe otherwise?

Because no member wants to be seen as unreliable, risking their own security in the future, so everyone will in practice assist in any way they can.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#196

Post by dragonwriter »

pphysch wrote: post #76
nicolapede wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the Baltic Sea before and after the invasion of Ukraine, that was largely a neutral space (before) that has since turned into a NATO one -- excluding only the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. I would argue this makes any further move by Russia in that space quite problematic.

Sweden and Finland have been in the EU for almost 30 years. Sweden joining NATO does not really change the geopolitics of the Baltic.

The EU is not a military alliance, NATO is. There is a substantial difference between countries being in the EU only and being in NATO (either only or along with the EU.)

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#197

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

tharmas wrote: post #130
alienicecream wrote: post #111

Adding another western European country that's under no threat from anyone to NATO isn't going to do anything. We should be adding backwards countries that share borders with or are targets of major enemies, like Georgia and Taiwan. You can't control the world if all you're doing is protecting yourself and your buddies from yourself and your buddies. We need to get Israel in NATO so that the next time Hezbollah fires…

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#198

Post by miroljub »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #70
KingOfCoders wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.

All indications suggest that Russia also wants Odessa and the rest of the black sea coastline, which would probably never be acceptable even with NATO membership.

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#199

Post by Hamuko »

safgasCVS wrote: post #125

Lemme be the guy who farts in the elevator. Sweden has managed to avoid entangling itself in military conflicts around the world for centuries and by joining NATO it’s got itself security but at the expense of potentially involving itself in conflicts regardless if Swedes want to be involved or not. Anyways it seems popular in Sweden but the naive lefty in me still thinks it’s a shame at the collective high-fiving

Wikipedia would suggest that the Kingdom of Sweden has involved itself in multiple military conflicts in the past century or so, including NATO ops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Sweden#...

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#200

Post by dralley »

sspiff wrote: post #170
dralley wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does Gripen have to do with the US military industrial complex? The US isn't the ones sending F-16s anyway.

The parent comment is referring to the US pressuring all European NATO members to abandon plans to acquire Saab or Dassault jets in favour of its own F35.

Ah, so mythology.

Most of the European nations with F-35 currently either joined the program from the beginning decades ago, or want to participate in nuclear deterrent and have no other option (unless France decides to share their nukes, but that hasn't happened yet, and you can bet they'll want you to buy Rafale for the privilege if they do), or want stealth capabilities which nobody else can offer right now, or want greater compatibility with the US munitions stockpile which is vastly larger than what Europe has available... etc.

Jets take a long time to develop, the time for Europe to get serious about "strategic autonomy" in that respect was 2 decades ago. That didn't happen, so now the F-35 is the only option if they want the capability to penetrate Russian ground-based air defenses and consistently beat the Su-57 (cough all 8 of them, but it's possible they scale up eventually).

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