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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#131

Post by dataflow »

SamBam wrote: post #75
dataflow wrote: post #46

Does being in NATO obligate you to respond militarily if another member is attacked (as is commonly believed)? I failed to find this clause in the text last time I looked. Edit: for everyone telling me to read article 5: I already have, hence this question. It says each member "will assist [...] by taking [...] such action as it deems necessary". That very much doesn't appear to obligate a military response, or any r…

Did you actually take a look at the text of the treaty? It's very short and readable. Article 5 is what you're looking for. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht...

Yes? It says "will assist" and "such action as it deems necessary". That doesn't obligate them to provide a military response. What makes you believe otherwise?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#132

Post by pavlov »

Georgelemental wrote: post #89
pavlov wrote: post #7

Just in time for Trump to do the rug pull he agreed with Putin back in 2018, when they met in Helsinki and Trump took care to even destroy translator’s notes. If he wins the election, NATO is toast and Putin has carte blanche over East Europe.

[flagged]

EU countries including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and eastern Poland have been part of the Russian nation at some point since “ancient Rus”. What makes you think Putin doesn’t want them back?

Kaliningrad sits there right in the middle of EU and NATO. That’s got to sting him. Trump’s second term will be his ticket to take a stab at fixing this geopolitical blemish, the mote in the Eastern god’s eye.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#134

Post by empath-nirvana »

sschueller wrote: post #51
bilekas wrote: post #4

This is great news and NATO benefits hugely from this. I have to hand it to putin for bringing further solidarity across Europe and NATO.

[flagged]

> Why isn't there a NATO base in the US where German military etc. "hang out"?

The reason there is a large US presence in Germany is that Germany lost WWII. You can make all kinds of other justifications for it like "Germany invited the US", but it all comes back to the Allies created the current German government, and all of them had troops continuously stationed in Germany from WWII until well after the cold war ended. France and the UK have withdrawn most of theirs, the US is the one that still has a sizable presence and the reason is that Germany is afraid of Russia and wants them to stay.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#135

Post by jajko »

pphysch wrote: post #76
nicolapede wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the Baltic Sea before and after the invasion of Ukraine, that was largely a neutral space (before) that has since turned into a NATO one -- excluding only the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. I would argue this makes any further move by Russia in that space quite problematic.

Sweden and Finland have been in the EU for almost 30 years. Sweden joining NATO does not really change the geopolitics of the Baltic.

EU is economical/societal effort (or war prevention), NATO is military (and doesn't prevent members from fighting, ie Greece vs Turkey). Ever heard of actual EU army? Doesn't exist out there in the world, maybe on paper.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#136

Post by heroiccocoa »

richrichie wrote: post #100

[flagged]

The destruction, death and injuries seen in occupied Ukraine are already absolutely equivalent to nuclear war, minus the radiation. Also, I imagine the next nuclear weapons to be used in conflict will try to minimize their lingering "dirty" nature. So the added threat of nuclear annihilation is inconsequential.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#137

Post by unmole »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #119
unmole wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not saying that's accurate It's fairly accurate

Less accurate for a NATO that contains Sweden & Finland, though. There's no doubt those 2 have and will pull their weight. Speaking as a Canadian, whose country doesn't.

> will pull their weight

How much do they weigh in comparison to the 800lb gorilla that is the United States?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#138

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Georgelemental wrote: post #89
pavlov wrote: post #7

Just in time for Trump to do the rug pull he agreed with Putin back in 2018, when they met in Helsinki and Trump took care to even destroy translator’s notes. If he wins the election, NATO is toast and Putin has carte blanche over East Europe.

[flagged]

He (and/or his people) have talked a lot about annexing at least part of Poland. Less sure about the Baltics, but I think there's been some yapping about them too.

So, yeah, if you listen to what he and his people say, his motivations are not in doubt...

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#139

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

alienicecream wrote: post #111

Adding another western European country that's under no threat from anyone to NATO isn't going to do anything. We should be adding backwards countries that share borders with or are targets of major enemies, like Georgia and Taiwan. You can't control the world if all you're doing is protecting yourself and your buddies from yourself and your buddies. We need to get Israel in NATO so that the next time Hezbollah fires…

We should form an org similar to NATO but for the Pacific. Why would Taiwan join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#140

Post by MaxPengwing »

pphysch wrote: post #76
nicolapede wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the Baltic Sea before and after the invasion of Ukraine, that was largely a neutral space (before) that has since turned into a NATO one -- excluding only the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. I would argue this makes any further move by Russia in that space quite problematic.

Sweden and Finland have been in the EU for almost 30 years. Sweden joining NATO does not really change the geopolitics of the Baltic.

Given that we (Sweden) have been the preferred partner with Norway for NATO winter training exercises since the 1980s and our entire military strategy was based on "Nato will protect us if Putin invades" you are not wrong.

What changed was USA having people like Trump and the Republican party talk about not protecting NATO countries anymore. It made us realize that we can't continue to count on US help as the premise is based on the US having absolute control of the nuclear weapons, but loading them on NATO ally dual capable airplanes to launch the nukes.

If Europe is not convinced that the US will not share the nukes as agreed, then Europe has to actually rearm and might even casue a nuclear proliferation with France and UK restarting their nuclear programs.

so yeah it changes and not changes the geopolitics.

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