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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#71

Post by KingOfCoders »

maximilianburke wrote: post #48
tharmas wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How is the west being arrogant if the new member states want to join? It's not the west who invaded Georgia in 2008 or Crimea in 2014. It's not the west that invaded Ukraine in 2022. Countries bordering Russia have, for decades, known the threat that Russian imperialism is to them and it's their choice to protect themselves from an extremely aggressive, brutal neighbour.

Never understood people who believe the narrative of an expanding NATO. The baltics, Poland and other Eastern countries want to join NATO because they have been invaded several times by Russia, women raped, cities plundered, people tortured and killed. That is the reason those countries want to join NATO.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#73

Post by jedberg »

dataflow wrote: post #46

Does being in NATO obligate you to respond militarily if another member is attacked (as is commonly believed)? I failed to find this clause in the text last time I looked. Edit: for everyone telling me to read article 5: I already have, hence this question. It says each member "will assist [...] by taking [...] such action as it deems necessary". That very much doesn't appear to obligate a military response, or any r…

Article 5

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#74

Post by Hamuko »

ethbr1 wrote: post #55
Hamuko wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to say that Ukraine would've preferred to be completely taken over by Russia?

On the one hand, Ukrainians are being killed (although GP is incorrect -- Ukraine has specifically been drafting older, non-youth people) and their industry is being bombed. On the other hand, they're still a sovereign, free state. Opinions may vary on which of those is more important. As historical context, I would point out that the last time ethnic Russians controlled Ukraine, they killed 3M+ of them via starvatio…

>Opinions may vary on which of those is more important.

Survey data from last October suggests that 60% of Ukranians want to keep fighting until Ukraine wins and 31% are in favour of negotiating an end to the war ASAP.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-...

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#75

Post by SamBam »

dataflow wrote: post #46

Does being in NATO obligate you to respond militarily if another member is attacked (as is commonly believed)? I failed to find this clause in the text last time I looked. Edit: for everyone telling me to read article 5: I already have, hence this question. It says each member "will assist [...] by taking [...] such action as it deems necessary". That very much doesn't appear to obligate a military response, or any r…

Did you actually take a look at the text of the treaty? It's very short and readable. Article 5 is what you're looking for.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht...

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#76

Post by pphysch »

nicolapede wrote: post #33
pphysch wrote: post #18

Serious question, what does this change? NATO gets a bit more revenue from Swedish taxpayers? So what?

If you look at the Baltic Sea before and after the invasion of Ukraine, that was largely a neutral space (before) that has since turned into a NATO one -- excluding only the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. I would argue this makes any further move by Russia in that space quite problematic.

Sweden and Finland have been in the EU for almost 30 years. Sweden joining NATO does not really change the geopolitics of the Baltic.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#77

Post by [deleted] »

dataflow wrote: post #46

Does being in NATO obligate you to respond militarily if another member is attacked (as is commonly believed)? I failed to find this clause in the text last time I looked. Edit: for everyone telling me to read article 5: I already have, hence this question. It says each member "will assist [...] by taking [...] such action as it deems necessary". That very much doesn't appear to obligate a military response, or any r…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#78

Post by troupo »

gfodor wrote: post #63
troupo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It's really doubtful Russia will commit to nuclear war. 2. If it does, it will do that regardless of whether or not NATO enters the war or not. Russia has signalled it has no intentions of stopping its war of conquest

Taken together what you wrote here is a convenient framework for all blame of any possible nuclear exchange to be entirely disconnected from NATO.

There's exactly one country threatening its nukes, conducting the largest war in Europe since WWII and showing no willingness to stop.

So, the question is: what do you do? Sit back and let it take whatever it wants?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#79

Post by lawn »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #27
iam-TJ wrote: post #3

Looking at the flag colours I cannot but think that Sweden is paving the way for Ukraine's membership.

I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.

That would require Russia to back off, which they of course wouldn't do.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#80

Post by tharmas »

avtolik wrote: post #21
tharmas wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If the people of Ukraine want to get in NATO for protection, how is this the West being arrogant?

Study great power politics and you will understand what I mean. Russia is a nuclear power. That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger. That's like giving the Mafia boss the finger when he has a gun pointed at your head. You might think that's brave defiance but inarguably that will get you killed.

Study the outrage in the USA when Russia put nuclear missiles in Cuba, when Cuba, a sovereign country asked for those missiles (aka The Cuban Missile Crisis). Substitute Cuba for Ukraine and USA for Russia and you will be begin to understand the Russian point of view. But hey the West is Right, We are the Good Guys, always on the side of Freedom and Democracy so we can't be wrong. Just ask the Palestinians in Gaza.

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