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Nikon to acquire RED

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Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#131

Post by jiggawatts »

Something that industry hasn't seemed to have noticed is that Nikon has recently released a couple of camera bodies that are very capable hybrid shooters. The Nikon Z9 and Z8 cameras can record up to 8.3K 60fps RAW video in-body[1], and the shutter speed is fast enough to be very nearly "global shutter". They also inherit features common to stills cameras but rare in video cameras such as eye-detect auto focus.

Some samples I've found online:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR5BV1L7tCg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFkgs0GsbpA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3cAwDwvK-M

Notably, these videos were made by essentially amateurs. Even if the shooters are industry pros, they're still taking these shots on their own without a film crew and a professional setup. Just running around with a "normal" camera you can carry in one hand.

I wonder if this is going to be a dead end now that Nikon has acquired RED. I have a sinking feeling that the product lines will be split again, and that the stills bodies will not get any new video features, which will be relegated to dedicated video cameras.

[1] Something I've heard is that perceived video quality is more strongly correlated to the data rate than pixel resolution. These cameras can record at about 6,000 Mbps which is in the same league a "large format" and IMAX style cine cameras.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#132

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

dylan604 wrote: post #114
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for the sack dance. I already stated twice , that I was wrong, and thanked the posters for the corrections. This was all long before you wrote this.

And now you've said it a third time. It doesn't matter. You made a bold comment that was inaccurate, and people will call you on it to set the record straight. Nobody called you names, nor are they picking on you. It may feel that way, but I don't have any emotions toward you at all. The emotions are on your end.

Actually, I don't really care. I always promptly admit when I'm wrong. Just the way I live.

I just felt like being a bit of a pedant, by pointing out your unnecessary, unkind, and inflammatory comment. I took it exactly the way that you intended. You admit that you read the comments, but made the decision to post this, anyway (sack dance).

There's a better than even chance that we would actually find a lot in common, but I guess that's not to be. I also happen to have a fairly unique perspective, here. Not everything that I wrote was wrong.

Have a great day!

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#133

Post by tomcam »

justforasingle wrote: post #24

Pretty interesting. If you look on netflix approved camera list[0] there are none from Nikon. Personally I think RED cameras are overhyped and are a major reason most netflix shows all look and feel the same. I don't think its the colour grading or lenses - its something about the camera itself that just feels shit and doesn't give me the same access to a scene the same way something like sony's HDVS from 30 years ag…

It appears to me they accept many RED cameras?

https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/360...

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#135

Post by tombert »

Swizec wrote: post #125
tombert wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally fair, I guess I was hoping it would be like servers. New servers are also super expensive, and don't directly market to consumer, but their used value is basically nothing. You can buy a used server on eBay, even with relatively nice specs for a consumer, for less than a grand, often substantially less than a grand (mine was $150 for 128gb of RAM and 24 cores). It doesn't appear that pro-grade cameras fall th…

> It doesn't appear that pro-grade cameras fall the same way though I wonder if cameras are just too durable and don’t need to be upgraded as often? Even a consumer camera will last you roughly forever in my experience. I still use a DSLR from 2015 that works great and does everything I need.

Yeah, I think that's the thing. The reason that companies liquidate servers for so cheap is because nearly any large company that buys a server would always benefit from a server that's any amount better. e.g. If you can push 10% more trades, that roughly correlates directly to profits, so the relative cost of "just buying a new server" is nothing.

A nice 4k (and especially 8k) camera, on the otherhand, is likely "good enough" for a lot longer. A studio can probably get a lot more value out of a 10 year old Red One than a trading company can get from a 10 year old server, so there's not really the constant need to upgrade your camera every year or two.

Also, it would be worth considering that a new camera would (I assume) require a bit more learning on the operators part, since there might be subtle differences between color grading and compression and the like. A server, on the other hand, is somewhat standardized; Linux is basically Linux, if you're running the same OS you're getting basically the same experience, so the process of upgrading is pretty easy.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#136

Post by tivert »

justforasingle wrote: post #24

Pretty interesting. If you look on netflix approved camera list[0] there are none from Nikon. Personally I think RED cameras are overhyped and are a major reason most netflix shows all look and feel the same. I don't think its the colour grading or lenses - its something about the camera itself that just feels shit and doesn't give me the same access to a scene the same way something like sony's HDVS from 30 years ag…

> Pretty interesting. If you look on netflix approved camera list[0] there are none from Nikon.

I looked at that list and did some Googling, and it looks like Nikon just doesn't make video cameras like the other vendors. All they make are DSLRs that do a little bit of video.

This Quora answer (https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-main-differences-between-...) bluntly states; "Nikon has never sold a dedicated camcorder of any format."

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#137

Post by tombert »

atonse wrote: post #122
tombert wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, but using computers as an analogy: a professional-grade computer from the 90's (e.g. a Silicon Graphics machine) used in professional films would cost like $40,000, but now you can buy something orders of magnitude more powerful than a 90's era SGI workstation for peanuts; virtually any modern gaming rig made in the last 15 years or will outperform even a top of the line SGI from 1995, because computer h…

Yeah the Reds are really nice, but I (a consumer) haven't been able to tell the difference between what a RED can do and what, say, a $7k SLR type camera could do, film-wise. So honestly not sure if there is a market of people who can tell a difference between those AND people that are looking to cut costs on the camera because their film crew's time would be much more expensive. (Mostly thinking out loud, doesn't in…

Absolutely; if you're a movie studio buying a new pro camera ever five years, it doesn't really matter what the camera costs. You can very easily buy a new camera for basically any price, and it'll still be like .01% of the cost of the budget.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#138

Post by praisewhitey »

_fat_santa wrote: post #87
atoav wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red cameras are overhyped, but picture quality is not the issue. It is very likely that what you describe is more due stylistic differences in lighting, color grading and editing than due to the camera itself — coming from someone who professionally had to match colors on films shot on multiple different cameras on more than one occasion. Reliability is the main reason why Red cameras are overhyped, but you get good…

ARRI also has their own "picture style", at least the ARRI Alexa. I remember seeing video on YT where the guy bought a really old ARRI Alexa that was used in Hollywood back in 05 or 06. When they showed some of the footage they took with it, it looked exactly like an mid-2000's big screen movie, I honestly didn't realize those movies even had a "look" until I saw his video.

Do you mean the D20? The Alexa wasn't released until 2010

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#139

Post by kkukshtel »

cfr2023 wrote: post #103

I started following the RED story before those folks ever released a camera, and I liked their spirit and mission. Some time passed and ultimately it was Black Magic Design that accomplished what RED said they wanted to do. If you say you want to make high end cinema technology, or even just high quality imagery, accessible to the average person, a $17,500 price tag for just the camera body shows that you might have…

I think if you know the RED story you know that at the time there were effectively 0 consumer-tier high end digital cameras. We're talking basically the advent of the DSLR revolution, where either you shot on a Canon 5D MK II or... an Alexa? Alexas retail around $50,000 (and weren't out until 2010), so RED offering actual 4K video digital camera with an easy conversion to EF mount glass (Canon) and a body that is literally half the size of an Alexa AND was consumer-purchasable at $17,500 (Alexa purchase process isn't "just buy on B&H") - it was huge.

The other thing is that the camera market and the concept of "consumer" isn't really like normal "consumer" end stuff. High-end digital camera "consumer" stuff has different purchase cycles that traditional "consumer" things like iPhones don't have. Camera Operators/DPs typically buy these huge cameras and then rent them out or bill their cost back into their day rate.

When RED says consumer, they mean that any person with money can buy one. Alexas, Panavision Cameras, Fony F65s, etc. all usually need to be bought by a cinema rental house and then are rented to operators. RED went around that and allowed people to buy cinema-tier cameras directly, which was huge. The market has adjusted since then and I think Blackmagic (and the Sony Alpha line) now more directly serve traditional definitions of "Consumer", but IMO none of that would have happened without RED paving the path.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#140

Post by wmf »

tombert wrote: post #115

It would be kind of cool Nikon is able to bring the price of RED cameras down. I've wanted a truly professional-grade camera for awhile, but I cannot justify spending $10k-20k for something that would fundamentally be a glorified toy to me (since I don't do anything professional with camera). I was hoping that pro-grade 4k cameras would drop to the sub-$500 mark by now, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Even th…

A Canon R100 is under $500 and probably has similar or better image quality to the CineAlta used on Star Wars 25 years ago. A ZV-E10 is slightly better for slightly more money.
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