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EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

reuters.com

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Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#91

Post by Grangar »

type0 wrote: post #80
torlok wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live close to the border with Ukraine and I have no idea what you're talking about. Beyond it being a little harder to get an apartament due to the influx of Ukrainian migrants, it's business as usual. And I've not heard of any job market woes. The worst thing right now, and since a while, is farmers getting shafted by cheap grain imports from Ukraine due to lax control at the border, no tracking, and no punishment…

> is farmers getting shafted by cheap grain imports from Ukraine due to lax control at the border, no tracking, and no punishments for buyers. they say that and yet much larger traffic of grain from Russia somehow doesn't hurt those farmers?! maybe it's because a lot of it is stolen Ukrainian grain so everyone should be hush shush about it

Several of the farmers protesting at the Polish botder are borderline state actors on Russian behalf, with connections to government officials being proven. Make of that what you will.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#92

Post by rcbdev »

seydor wrote: post #20

Sure, we will hire a few thousand contractors to form a network of committees and prepare multiple sustainability plans and guidelines for the next seven years. We will also declare war illegal and fine violators with 70% of their gdp. Whoever dares to challenge european sovereignty will be met with the collective wrath of our cookie prompts The EU is not only materially incapable of war mode (too many second rate ca…

On the other hand, when Albania was attacked by Iran in 2022 their prime minister didn't invoke Article 5 because he has "too much respect for our friends and our allies to tell them what they should do."

NATO is just as seemingly unfair to its smaller members as is the EU. This is not because of any incompetence per se but rather just a phenomenon in any organization with differently powerful members. Places like US, Germany and Albania will never really be equal due to their respective bargaining powers - no matter what a charta says.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#93

Post by Etherlord87 »

garaetjjte wrote: post #71
Etherlord87 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make an experiment and try to predict what would happen otherwise. Or just read my prediction below. Countries who don't force people to fight are: - much weaker in the case of war, - with such policies not being (a well hidden) secret, an attractive target for a hostile country. So such countries are going to statistically be attacked more often, and statistically lose more often. So if you don't counter those stati…

I don't have perfect solution, but "to avoid being defeated by evil we must become evil ourselves" is not really the point. There are things that are lose-lose, making war worse for both sides. For things like chemical weapons we have treaties banning it, while for conscription all politicians are quiet about while pretending to care about human rights.

I'd say balance is important. You can't just say: "I'll start a company, where if a consumer reports he's unhappy with a product, service, I'll just refund his money unconditionally, because that's the world I'd like to live in." Maybe such approach is achievable in the far future, but you can't ignore the harsh environment of your competition and go straight for the ideal approach.

And yes, I know you might not consider my example of an ideal approach, but there's plenty similar examples to make, like a sports team being completely fair: recognizing their errors when even the judge doesn't, recognize negative errors of the judge against their opponents (and e.g. allow the opponent to easily get a point to cancel out unfair judge's ruling), never pretend an injury even though an opponent does it etc. Such a team would quickly become irrelevant.

In other words, your attitude is naive and it stems from a false dilemma that you can be either good or evil, disregarding the smooth gradient, where you can try to climb up reasonably high - higher than average - and pull the rest up.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#94

Post by greg_V »

kuratkull wrote: post #87
greg_V wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not complacency, that's a feature. The key to peace in Europe is the unified free trade zone on one hand, but on the other it's also disarmament while relying on NATO. Besides putting territorial questions aside, one of the main requirements of joining NATO was to discontinue the draft! The entire security failure is by design, one that has been made a long time ago when the US force was way more capable and t…

Are you sure? Estonia still has compulsory defense forces draft of 8 or 11 months for young men.

AFAIK small states are treated as exceptions because the conscription leaves you with the same amount of men as professional armies of bigger countries. But there has been a lot of talk in the past few years of changing this, but politically it would be immensely unpopular.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#95

Post by oneshtein »

leereeves wrote: post #14
The_Colonel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms industry or military budget as a percent of GDP. The main problem is that Europe lacks the fighting spirit (with some exceptions like Poland). Countries like Germany will fold / capitulate to any demands if they suffer thousands of casualties.

Nobody wants to lie in the trenches to protect other people's wealth, but that's what usually happens. The poor are sent to fight and die, or to return home to poverty and disability if they survive. I'm amazed anyone is willing to sign up to risk their life for $2K/month, even here in the US where military service has long been glorified.

Your speech targeted at young men with no family and children, so they may think that they protect "wealth".

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#96

Post by unmole »

greg_V wrote: post #94
kuratkull wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? Estonia still has compulsory defense forces draft of 8 or 11 months for young men.

AFAIK small states are treated as exceptions because the conscription leaves you with the same amount of men as professional armies of bigger countries. But there has been a lot of talk in the past few years of changing this, but politically it would be immensely unpopular.

Turkey has the second largest standing military in NATO and still has conscription.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#97

Post by philwelch »

greg_V wrote: post #32
TillE wrote: post #4

There was an incredibly stubborn post-Cold War "end of history" complacency in Europe that really should have ended after the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Instead it lasted until the full invasion in 2022. What's been starkly revealed since is that Europe is woefully unprepared to respond to any kind of aggression, and aside from France's nuclear weapons, wholly reliant on America. At some point you have to get seri…

That's not complacency, that's a feature. The key to peace in Europe is the unified free trade zone on one hand, but on the other it's also disarmament while relying on NATO. Besides putting territorial questions aside, one of the main requirements of joining NATO was to discontinue the draft! The entire security failure is by design, one that has been made a long time ago when the US force was way more capable and t…

The majority of NATO members had conscription at the time they joined NATO. Also, the United States has been pressuring NATO members to increase defense spending for decades; Trump’s threats to withdraw from NATO were a hardball negotiating tactic towards this longstanding foreign policy goal.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#98

Post by tim333 »

type0 wrote: post #78
argentier wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about Russian security, not Putin's vanity. Please try to raise the level of discourse beyond the boogyman propaganda so beloved of Hollywood. This is serious, deadly serious, and seeing it treated so lightly is painful.

I'm hearing Russians will feel secure when they conquer all the former USSR territory > boogyman propaganda so beloved of Hollywood. not hollywood, they say it on Russian state tv, if you take your head out of your arse and manage to watch and listen you'll see it loud and clearly

When the USSR held the USSRs territory they still seemed to feel insecure enough to attack the neighbours.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#99

Post by tim333 »

argentier wrote: post #53
peutetre wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And after you give up on Ukraine what's next? Georgia? Moldova? Estonia? Poland? Lithuania? More? They're all fair game for Russia are they? Russia will find your submissiveness very helpful.

[flagged]

“This is nothing but total nonsense and Russian propaganda,” - Boris (https://archive.ph/KWpGG#selection-2739.75-2739.135)

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#100

Post by tim333 »

argentier wrote: post #66
peutetre wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's serious. It's serious enough for Ukrainians to be dying every day for the defense of their nation. Russians are dying every day too. Putin can save many Russian lives with a simple order to get out of Ukraine. Putin plainly values his vanity over the lives of the Russian people.

It's about Russian security, not Putin's vanity. Please try to raise the level of discourse beyond the boogyman propaganda so beloved of Hollywood. This is serious, deadly serious, and seeing it treated so lightly is painful.

Oh BS it's security. Like they are threatened by a small peacefull country next door with a comedian elected as president to join the EU, when they have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world and a dictator skilled in mass murder.

>Western historians have calculated that, over the last 400 years of its existence, the Russian Empire expanded at an average rate of 50 square kilometers per day. (https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/09/10/putins-nationalism...)

Could it instead just be that they are just doing what they have habitually done?

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