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It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

blogs.computerworld.com

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Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#71

Post by rbanffy »

Zak wrote: post #41

This seems like a bad move for Microsoft. Few people see them as the horrible monopolistic evil empire anymore, but it's not so long ago that people saw them that way. They got in significant legal trouble just for bundling a browser with Windows. Blocking alternative browsers, or subjecting them to restrictions MS considers too crippling for their own browser seems like a good way to scare off developers and users a…

Scaring users off is not that big a problem for them. Microsoft has 5 vital clients - HP, Dell, Acer, Lenovo and Toshiba. As long as you buy a computer with Windows installed (and it's hard not to) they're happy.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#72

Post by kalleboo »

MaysonL wrote: post #60

Of course, there are other web browsers for iOS: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3961084

But no alternative rendering engines (all the alternative browsers are just UIWebViews save for Opera Mini which Apple don't classify as a browser since it doesn't do any rendering locally), and the alternative browsers have worse performance than Safari due to the sandbox disallowing some optimizations allowed in Safari.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#73

Post by azakai »

koeselitz wrote: post #29

This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize Apple? It seems more worthwhile to do it oneself. The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right . If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't…

> Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple

Good points, and furthermore that bit isn't even accurate. Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. But Windows RT is a new product, so there is new cricitism; the criticism of Apple is old.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#74

Post by rbanffy »

sp332 wrote: post #61
unreal37 wrote: post #55

A lot of misinformation being spread here. Microsoft has not BANNED Firefox in Windows 8. There will be a version of Firefox for all editions of Windows 8, including desktop and tablet as long as Mozilla chooses to make one. In Windows 8 for ARM-based tablets, applications like this have to run in a sandbox (Metro UI). Get over it. Either consumers will or will not buy a tablet that they can't run applications the wa…

The "sandbox" disallows JITs. That means JS performance in any browser (other than IE) will be basically unusable, effectively banning browsers from ARM Win8.

... and irreparably damaging their reputation when compared with IE.

So, no. I don't buy that "We don't want to ban your app, we just want to make sure it disappoints your users" as fair.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#75

Post by kalleboo »

ozten wrote: post #59

(Disclaimers: I work for Mozilla) There is a huge difference between iOS and other platforms. Apple, in legal terms, makes Firefox on iOS impossible. This was not the case with Windows; Microsoft was using covert means to undermine user choice. To make a blanket statement that Mozilla thinks Apple's banning Firefox from iPad and the iPhone is 'not a problem' is wrong and disingenuous. We have active projects around w…

> To apple's credit, they've provided a web standards based browser to a mobile landscape that didn't have one (at the time) and which spawned many other web standards based browsers like Chrome.

As I recall it, Nokia started using WebKit on Symbian before the iPhone came out.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#76

Post by rbanffy »

azakai wrote: post #22

Best guess, the author is intentionally being dense and stirring up controversy for clicks. Yes, iOS and Windows RT are similar in some ways. The main difference is that Windows RT is a version of Windows, an OS that is a monopoly in its area. Extending a monopoly to other areas is different than a totally new product. Note that Microsoft is using the dominant position of Windows to further Windows RT, for example by…

> give Microsoft more leeway given it is fighting an uphill battle in the tablet space

So, if we make it really hard to rob a bank, we should be OK with someone robbing one. The fact it's an uphill battle does not make it less an abuse of monopoly to extend it into other markets than it would be if they managed to see this opportunity before others (or not failed miserably to execute on it, over and over again).

It's only an uphill battle because they were incompetent to see the opportunities Apple saw and to execute as well as Apple did.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#77

Post by rbanffy »

azakai wrote: post #73
koeselitz wrote: post #29

This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize Apple? It seems more worthwhile to do it oneself. The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right . If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't…

> Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple Good points, and furthermore that bit isn't even accurate. Mozilla has been critical of Apple too. But Windows RT is a new product, so there is new cricitism; the criticism of Apple is old.

WinRT is not a new product - it's a new API sitting on top of mostly the same Windows kernel they use for Windows 7.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#78

Post by jack-r-abbit »

rbanffy wrote: post #68
jack-r-abbit wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that an iPad can perform all the functions that some people are (under) using a laptop for doesn't mean that an iPad is an adequate replacement for a computer. They should not be marketed as such.

It all depends on what you use your computer for. For me it wouldn't be an adequate replacement - I like to work on my code offline and run development servers of my computer, but it's easy to imagine a simple setup where I log on to a remote machine through the tablet and work there.

I'm pretty sure we are agreeing here. If they don't do everything a computer does, they are not a replacement for a computer. If they do everything you do on your computer then they are a replacement for your computer.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#79

Post by ozten »

kalleboo wrote: post #75
ozten wrote: post #59

(Disclaimers: I work for Mozilla) There is a huge difference between iOS and other platforms. Apple, in legal terms, makes Firefox on iOS impossible. This was not the case with Windows; Microsoft was using covert means to undermine user choice. To make a blanket statement that Mozilla thinks Apple's banning Firefox from iPad and the iPhone is 'not a problem' is wrong and disingenuous. We have active projects around w…

> To apple's credit, they've provided a web standards based browser to a mobile landscape that didn't have one (at the time) and which spawned many other web standards based browsers like Chrome. As I recall it, Nokia started using WebKit on Symbian before the iPhone came out.

I have a US bias, from my POV they provided the first mainstream web browser, but sure...

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#80

Post by sp332 »

Terretta wrote: post #51
wvenable wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple blocks all non-Safari browsers from the store. Opera Mobile doesn't exist in the App store, only Opera Mini which uses a remote server for rendering. Other browsers in the store use iOS webkit and are effectively shells around the Safari rendering engine.

What's wrong with the webkit rendering engine? Chrome started as "effectively a shell" around webkit. As far as most end users are concerned, the difference between browsers is the UI, not the rendering engine. I use iCab on iOS for its UI and amazing feature set (including Adblock and extensions), and apprececiate the choice. In fact, it syncs with Firefox bookmarks. Atomic is also nice. It would be very interesting…

Even if your browser is a skin on webkit, it will run in a sandbox and have worse performance than Safari on iOS.
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