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EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

reuters.com

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Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#41

Post by peutetre »

hackandthink wrote: post #13
The_Colonel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms industry or military budget as a percent of GDP. The main problem is that Europe lacks the fighting spirit (with some exceptions like Poland). Countries like Germany will fold / capitulate to any demands if they suffer thousands of casualties.

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.

And after you give up on Ukraine what's next? Georgia? Moldova? Estonia? Poland? Lithuania? More? They're all fair game for Russia are they?

Russia will find your submissiveness very helpful.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#42

Post by garaetjjte »

The_Colonel wrote: post #15
hackandthink wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?

[flagged]

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#43

Post by stalfosknight »

verdverm wrote: post #30
stalfosknight wrote: post #18

Maybe now some of our European friends will start pulling their weight with respect to funding NATO.

This is an outdated statistic. The EU as a whole is spending above the 2% and if you include broader items like railway improvements to facilitate moving US tanks, the number more than doubles. Some EU countries have given more than 2% to Ukraine on top of this The Data on NATO Responsibility Sharing - CSIS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YihXoQjnYc

While this might be true now, this has not always been the case.

And there are still some individual NATO members that want to make excuses instead of pay their fair share for the nuclear umbrella we are providing them, among many other things.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#44

Post by The_Colonel »

kelipso wrote: post #38
The_Colonel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's incredibly patronizing. Those silly Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, let me explain them what they should do. What's so wrong living under Russian yoke anyway? Russian ballet looks nice, it can't be that bad.

Plenty of countries have surrendered in the past. Like telling the Japanese they should surrender is so patronizing.

To be clear, are you equating WW2 Japan to Ukraine here?

Don't you see some major differences between the role of the two in their respective wars?

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#45

Post by The_Colonel »

garaetjjte wrote: post #42
The_Colonel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?

[flagged]

Finland faced way worse population odds in the Winter war, yet still managed to stop the Soviets. They had to concede some territory, but it was very far from a surrender.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#46

Post by kelipso »

The_Colonel wrote: post #44
kelipso wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of countries have surrendered in the past. Like telling the Japanese they should surrender is so patronizing.

To be clear, are you equating WW2 Japan to Ukraine here? Don't you see some major differences between the role of the two in their respective wars?

You are now moving the discussion from practicality to idealism. Doesn't really matter what ideals they have when they have to consider getting destroyed or not.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#47

Post by Etherlord87 »

leereeves wrote: post #14
The_Colonel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms industry or military budget as a percent of GDP. The main problem is that Europe lacks the fighting spirit (with some exceptions like Poland). Countries like Germany will fold / capitulate to any demands if they suffer thousands of casualties.

Nobody wants to lie in the trenches to protect other people's wealth, but that's what usually happens. The poor are sent to fight and die, or to return home to poverty and disability if they survive. I'm amazed anyone is willing to sign up to risk their life for $2K/month, even here in the US where military service has long been glorified.

This is why you need various manipulation* techniques: religion (to decrease the fear of death), patriotism, anger, glorification of war and heroism... I sometimes wonder if maybe the poor state of modern education is not just incompetence or a result of a cynical idea "stupid society is easier to control", but instead someone analyzed that an intelligent society would become atheist/cynical/pragmatic etc. resulting in severly decreased motivation to fight for the government.

* I think the word "manipulation" implies an intent to mislead someone, while some techniques influencing others are used by people unaware of the effects or (in)correctness of the propaganda; maybe rather than "manipulation" I should say "indoctrination".

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#48

Post by The_Colonel »

kelipso wrote: post #46
The_Colonel wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, are you equating WW2 Japan to Ukraine here? Don't you see some major differences between the role of the two in their respective wars?

You are now moving the discussion from practicality to idealism. Doesn't really matter what ideals they have when they have to consider getting destroyed or not.

The side with no idealism is bound to lose, because for individuals it's better to run than to fight. Tragedy of the commons.

But what you're doing is a category error. It's a completely different thing to ask your enemy to surrender from asking your ally (in a loose sense) to surrender.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#49

Post by verdverm »

stalfosknight wrote: post #43
verdverm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an outdated statistic. The EU as a whole is spending above the 2% and if you include broader items like railway improvements to facilitate moving US tanks, the number more than doubles. Some EU countries have given more than 2% to Ukraine on top of this The Data on NATO Responsibility Sharing - CSIS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YihXoQjnYc

While this might be true now, this has not always been the case. And there are still some individual NATO members that want to make excuses instead of pay their fair share for the nuclear umbrella we are providing them, among many other things.

Here is a timestamped link for convenience

https://www.youtube.com/live/6YihXoQjnYc?t=488

The vast majority of NATO countries are now above 3%

14 countries are above 4%

11 countries are between 3-4%

4 countries are between 2-3%

The countries under the 2% mark

1. Iceland - 1.72

2. Montenegro - 1.57 (incomplete data)

3. N. Macedonia - 1.66 (incomplete data)

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#50

Post by Etherlord87 »

garaetjjte wrote: post #42
The_Colonel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?

[flagged]

Make an experiment and try to predict what would happen otherwise. Or just read my prediction below.

Countries who don't force people to fight are:

- much weaker in the case of war,

- with such policies not being (a well hidden) secret, an attractive target for a hostile country.

So such countries are going to statistically be attacked more often, and statistically lose more often.

So if you don't counter those statistical downsides somehow, you should expect such human-rights-respecting countries to eventually be displaced by less human-righty countries.

With NATO, advanced technology and enough people willing to fight you indeed might not need to force a draft; but clearly not the case for Ukraine.

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