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European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

arstechnica.com

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Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#621

Post by CorrectHorseBat »

ojosilva wrote: post #370
CorrectHorseBat wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, the absence of a physical speed control for the windshield wipers is the single worst design flaw of Teslas. The fog lights are much worse

How about the voice commands for these? ("Wipers 1-slash-4"). I just got my first Tesla, MYLR, and even though it's annoying not having the stalks given the rain sensor is absolute junk the voice command seems to work 98% of the time. The voice command is activated from a button on the steering wheel - it may require a network connection though. I haven't tried the fog lights, it may not have a command, but there's a…

I hate the voice commands.

Half of the time it says it doesn't understand me, or it does something completely different "turn or rear window defrost" -> turn heat to high!. Fog lights it does understand, but it's "not yet implemented", whatever that means.

> pull or push and a quick light menu comes up - 2 clicks

Yeah, so I have to flash someone in front of me to turn on my fog lights, great. And don't forget to turn off automatic lights because it will turn off the fog together with the other lights but not turn them back on.

Apart from that I really like the car, just put a few more functions on the stalks and it would be a great car.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#622

Post by oblio »

jojobas wrote: post #486
oblio wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fly by wire has been a thing since the 80s, F-18 IIRC. At some point we'll have drive by wire, it just makes sense.

This doesn't necessarily follow. Planes became pressurized and got oxygen masks, it's very unlikely that cars ever do. Having steel cables and/or hydraulic lines for the 4-6 dimensions of aircraft controls adds up to some serious extra weight worth fighting for on a plane, while one steel rod might never be more problematic than the heap of problems its absence creates. As long as the steering wheel is there it might…

EVs can have multiple motors and those motors can be very close to wheels, maybe even inside wheels.

It stops making sense to have a bunch of rods zigzagging everywhere.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#623

Post by dingnuts »

gspencley wrote: post #557
modeless wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Volume is on the steering wheel. A/C is automatic and I don't need to touch it the vast majority of the time. While driving the most I might want to do is adjust the temperature, and since it's not safety critical I can choose a convenient time. It's at the bottom of the screen so it is easy to do by grabbing behind the bezel and only requires a quick glance to align your thumb. In practice I glance at physical A/C c…

> While driving the most I might want to do is adjust the temperature, and since it's not safety critical I can choose a convenient time. I'm not sure how much I agree that temperature is not safety critical. It's relative for sure, less safety critical than breaks or transmission, but it can still impact safety in certain situations. In the city when you have a lot of red lights and stop signs, it's not a big deal t…

Purely from a consumer standpoint, why on Earth would I EVER choose a vehicle that expects me to pull over to change the AC or to take my eyes off the road to control it, if there are competitors on the market that allow me to do so without doing those things?

Can you imagine actually pulling over off the interstate to change your AC? Absurd. Totally absurd and disconnected from reality. Nobody would do it, they would take their eyes off the road and then it doesn't matter AT ALL whether the function they're trying to perform has to do with safety or even operating the vehicle -- it's a distraction, and that's sufficiently bad.

Can we stop putting distractions in front of drivers, in general? Please?

I'll forgive Android Auto and Apple's thing because people won't stop looking at their phones otherwise but the driver should be able to control the vehicle and everything they might want to do in it without looking away from the road.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#624

Post by Kwpolska »

iforgotpassword wrote: post #228
Kwpolska wrote: post #223

> Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel. What the actual fuck? Who thought that replacing such a common function with the least reliable input method possible (capacitive "buttons") was a good idea? Also, if I get into a rental car or whatever, I don't need to learn basic controls with sane m…

I'm confused now. I haven't been in a current Tesla, but what do we refer to when we say haptic button nowadays? To me that's synonymous to tactile button = physical button, but you talk about capacitive buttons. Did Apple's introduction of haptic feedback for touch somehow shift the meaning?

Capacitive buttons, i.e. an absolute trainwreck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6e_gNdxs_s

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#625

Post by archon810 »

trogdor wrote: post #509
modeless wrote: post #207

> Now, Euro NCAP is not insisting on everything being its own button or switch. But the organization wants to see physical controls for turn signals, hazard lights, windshield wipers, the horn, and any SOS features This is much more reasonable than I assumed. Unlike seemingly most people here I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (…

I can’t believe that Tesla still ships cars without a center-press horn button. I own a Model S Plaid, and the horn button’s location on the yoke can generally only be reached by the driver’s right hand. Even more dangerous, its position in space changes dramatically any time you are in the middle of a turn. The horn button is not easy to press in an emergency. Same story with the turn signals. If you are in the midd…

100000% this. It's mind boggling that they managed to ship a car without the center horn, and it's even more mind-boggling that the NHTSA let and is still letting them.

I got used to the turn signals and the wipers because I use them a lot. But I still haven't gotten used to the horn and the lights because these functionalities are used very infrequently, so there is no muscle memory for them at all. I've had this car for over a year now.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#626

Post by ojosilva »

eldaisfish wrote: post #518
ojosilva wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the voice commands for these? ("Wipers 1-slash-4"). I just got my first Tesla, MYLR, and even though it's annoying not having the stalks given the rain sensor is absolute junk the voice command seems to work 98% of the time. The voice command is activated from a button on the steering wheel - it may require a network connection though. I haven't tried the fog lights, it may not have a command, but there's a…

why are so many people in the tech world obsessed with voice controls? Seriously, this is imperfect at best and definitely a downgrade from a physical button. What is with this obsession?

Well, the OP says:

> almost every vehicle-maker moving key controls onto central touchscreens, obliging drivers to take their eyes off the road and raising the risk of distraction crashes

The concept of a physical button is the mother of all distractions. The touchscreen is just the physical button problem moved somewhere else.

Maybe today voice commands are not state of the art, or maybe, holy ball and chain batman, not even close to being the solution either, but I hope in the future nobody remembers there used to be cars with 113 physical buttons:

https://rennlist.com/forums/panamera/976009-too-many-buttons...

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#627

Post by [deleted] »

aaronmdjones wrote: post #225
arghwhat wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember to press both left and center pedals to stop. Manuals proliferate in EU, but we have also always had automatics on the road - and a significant increase since DSGs hit the market - so no one who has driven a few normal cars would be surprised by two pedals in an electric.

Using the clutch before you need to when braking is bad form. The engine will assist in braking if you let it, especially in the low gears, and this doesn't use any fuel -- dumping the clutch immediately consumes more fuel to keep the engine running. Put the brake pedal in first, and then the clutch pedal as you approach idle RPMs.

[deleted]

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#628

Post by arghwhat »

amenhotep wrote: post #379
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember to press both left and center pedals to stop To stop, not to slow down.

It's still not correct. You press the brake to stop. You press the clutch to not stall. They're separate concerns, or maybe more accurately one is only a response to the other - you clutch as you're about to stop because otherwise you'll stall, you don't brake and clutch at the same time because you decide to stop and not stall at the same time.

If you really want to nit, the only function of a clutch is to slip during start from standstill. All other steps of driving can be done without touching the clutch pedal and with less wear, including shifting and stopping. That's just not a nice way to drive.

If you don't press the clutch during a stop, you risk increasing your stopping distance both due to engine inertia and due to it fighting back below idle - especially in a diesel van. We only have muscle memory when we panic, and it's bad if someone is taught in a way that makes them miss a pedal.

That's also part of why you are taught with stick over here - better be trained to press a pedal too much than a pedal too little. If you do take the license in an automatic, you get a mark on your license disallowing you from driving stick.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#629

Post by jojobas »

oblio wrote: post #622
jojobas wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't necessarily follow. Planes became pressurized and got oxygen masks, it's very unlikely that cars ever do. Having steel cables and/or hydraulic lines for the 4-6 dimensions of aircraft controls adds up to some serious extra weight worth fighting for on a plane, while one steel rod might never be more problematic than the heap of problems its absence creates. As long as the steering wheel is there it might…

EVs can have multiple motors and those motors can be very close to wheels, maybe even inside wheels. It stops making sense to have a bunch of rods zigzagging everywhere.

Motors have nothing to do with this, you still have to have the suspension struts, and the wheels still have to be mechanically linked by the tie rod and usually the sway bar.

Also inside the wheels makes no sense at all, google unsprung weight.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#630

Post by ambichook »

trogdor wrote: post #509
modeless wrote: post #207

> Now, Euro NCAP is not insisting on everything being its own button or switch. But the organization wants to see physical controls for turn signals, hazard lights, windshield wipers, the horn, and any SOS features This is much more reasonable than I assumed. Unlike seemingly most people here I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (…

I can’t believe that Tesla still ships cars without a center-press horn button. I own a Model S Plaid, and the horn button’s location on the yoke can generally only be reached by the driver’s right hand. Even more dangerous, its position in space changes dramatically any time you are in the middle of a turn. The horn button is not easy to press in an emergency. Same story with the turn signals. If you are in the midd…

my current car (tk barina) has two horn buttons just to the left and right of where you expect a centre horn to be and it drives me insane. i dont typically feel the need to use the horn but whenever i do i have to make the conscious decision to press my thumb in on one of those specific spots because theyre also small enough that using the heel of your palm to do it feels wrong
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