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Why are there so many methane satellites?

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Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#41

Putting aside the climate aspects and just concentrating on companies that are trying to identify methane leaks: If I have a device that can accurately see methane leaks, I am very surprised it's really more economical to put them on satellites than to operate them locally. Yes, I get that you can have one device in orbit that can do the job for multiple companies, but satellites are just fantastically expensive. Unl…

I used to work on this at a methane monitoring shop. Others have good points.

Monitoring from the ground using methane sensors that detect the gas directly requires a lot of human labor. You need to send people out to often remote locations to set up bulky tripods full of (still expensive) sensors. You need some expensive data backhaul because these places often don’t have cellular access. We were billed by the byte to have a 24/7 contract with uptime guarantees in some of these locations. One big issue is that the companies paying for self-monitoring want suspiciously low false positives (for legal compliance reasons). You have to work with the land owners if you expect them to let you put sensors on their sites. This limits who can access that data compared to a NGO running a satellite, and requires you to filter out “noise” that’s probably not noise to appease the customers. They’re also not very accurate at detecting source in that close distance. Gases tend to quickly rise above where a human can place a sensor array and the wind and environmental factors play a huge impact. Very few companies are willing to stand behind their physics modeling with any kind of SLA. The human cost also shouldn’t be understated: when my coworkers would go and set up these sensors they’d be dizzy for days/weeks due to the emitted gasses they breathed in, our employer basically couldn’t find affordable medical insurance for us.

If you want to use spectroscopy/cameras, you can do it from a (small) distance. But it’s fantastically expensive equipment that only can be used for 1 site. And the “looking up” angle is worse than “looking down”. It’s an open question in the industry if the data can be trusted from these setups. You still have a lot of the complexity of maintaining them and exfiltrating the data.

If you want to just fly a plane… that’s expensive, you need to do it regularly, you still have a lot of “not actively monitored” time, etc.

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#42
Methane detection from space![1] will aid in the detection of greenhouse gas emissions from abandoned well-heads, oil-fields, landfills and other large environmental polluters contributing to climate change. The IEA[3] has attributed nearly 30% of global temperature rise to methane, so the detection of the sources is becoming a critical factor in mitigating direct and indrect impacts of climate change. The sensors aboard the MethaneSAT, as well as other deployed capabilities, are largely based IR detections with tunable bandgap materials like HgCdTe[2] arrays. HgCdTe allows for the detection of non-ionizing IR via bandgap tuning of the direct semiconductor CdTe. IR bands, and thus chemical specific detections, can be selected based on the Hg doping. Similar technologies in the James Webb NIRCam enable detection of red-shifted gamma rays that are now heat photons.

[1]https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00600-z

[2]https://www.methanesat.org/satellite/

[3]https://www.iea.org/reports/global-methane-tracker-2022/meth...

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#43
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Many” seems to mean only a dozen-odd. Which seems like an awfully small number to image the entire earth at meaningful levels of resolution or frequency. Which also seems to be the article’s lesson. FWIW, it looks like Starlink alone is up to 5,942 satellites in orbit [0] these days [0] https://planet4589.org/space/con/star/stats.html

If SpaceX cared, the Starlink fleet (both satellites and ground stations) could be the biggest, most sensitive radio telescope in the world, without compromising its usefulness as a network. It points in all directions at the same time. With such sensitivity, a very short "exposure" time is plenty. Each node records a few cycles of analog waveform at a certain atomic-clock time determined by its position, and forward…

The Starlink satellite antennas all point at the Earth. The antennas are also small compared to radio telescopes. They also listen to specific frequencies. They would make the best radio telescope for detecting Starlink customers.

The customer antennas would make poor radio telescope because the antennas are small. If using array of small antennas as radio telescopes were possible, we would see them. Using interferometry requires measuring positions and times to sub-wavelength. The Square Kilometer Array is the closest, but it is small extent, with large dishes, and many low-frequency antennas.

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#44

Putting aside the climate aspects and just concentrating on companies that are trying to identify methane leaks: If I have a device that can accurately see methane leaks, I am very surprised it's really more economical to put them on satellites than to operate them locally. Yes, I get that you can have one device in orbit that can do the job for multiple companies, but satellites are just fantastically expensive. Unl…

I used to work on this at a methane monitoring shop. Others have good points. Monitoring from the ground using methane sensors that detect the gas directly requires a lot of human labor. You need to send people out to often remote locations to set up bulky tripods full of (still expensive) sensors. You need some expensive data backhaul because these places often don’t have cellular access. We were billed by the byte…

In calibrating satellites getting folks like you to go out with sensors on the ground to send back well vetted data is an expensive and limiting factor. Much cheaper (and often preferred) to do as much as possible from space and do smart ground processing/data analysis to build confidence.

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#45
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to post quite sensationalist speculation please at least provide some attempt at a source or rationale. It doesn't really pass the sniff test that any goverment would bother with this banal subterfuge when they are more than capable of putting secret payloads into orbit, and have done so many times[1]. e.g. this, just the first relevant thing I could find https://spaceflightnow.com/2021/04/26/spy-sate…

Secret payloads which are impossible to track via radar or optically either from the ground or via other satellites? Really? Tell me more.

There was Zuma, the classified satellite that officially failed to separate from the payload adapter and burned up in the atmosphere but was widely speculated to be a successful test of stealth satellite technology, with the satellite successfully reaching orbit and going dark. A lot of talk about us knowing very little, but everyone loved to show off this graphic from a stealth satellite patent [1]. Of course if the NRO does a good job and the technology works we will never know that it does.

1: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTW_zc_W0AEH3Un?format=jpg&name=...

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#46
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s exactly why it’s also worth targeting. Its short residence time means that addressing methane emissions could make a meaningful impact. It’s not zero sum - we should address the low hanging fruit of methane emissions while also decarbonizing.

Wouldn’t that just embolden folks to emit more co2?

It might if companies sell carbon credits based on methane reduction, but that's an argument against the credits not against the actual mitigation action.

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#47
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a misunderstanding. The methane stays in the atmosphere a few years until it reacts with oxygen to CO2. So first you have the multiple times worse effect of CH4 and then you're left with CO2, which is still a greenhouse gas. You're left with CO2 either way, even when you burn the methane. That's why it's so bad. And that's why actually when companies or politicians tell you about "clean" gas, it's very mislead…

Sure, but the question is still whether that carbon came from a fossil source or was part of the cycle to begin with. Let's say a cow eats grass, produces methane, the methane gets converted into CO2, the grass grows back. No net increase in CO2. If, on the other hand, the methane came from natural gas, you have permanently added carbon to the cycle.

> No net increase in CO2.

Accelerating the "natural" cycle is bad even if there is no net increase. A massive forest fire technically doesn't cause any net increase in CO2, but releasing that much CO2 at once causes a lot of problems that wouldn't happen if the same amount were released over hundreds of years as those trees died and decayed.

I'm sure some people would argue that burning oil and gas isn't a net increase either, because all of that carbon came from the atmosphere originally. The important question is what emissions will make life worse for humanity, and what can be done to avoid them. Avoidable methane emissions cause real-world problems regardless of their source.

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#48

Putting aside the climate aspects and just concentrating on companies that are trying to identify methane leaks: If I have a device that can accurately see methane leaks, I am very surprised it's really more economical to put them on satellites than to operate them locally. Yes, I get that you can have one device in orbit that can do the job for multiple companies, but satellites are just fantastically expensive. Unl…

> satellites are just fantasically expensive Are they? A CubeSat can be launched for less than $100k, and their payload can contain off-the-shelf consumer hardware. That's what some upper-middle class families pay for an extra car. I think you're overestimating the cost of satellites. At the same time, you're underestimating the challenges of operating a ground sensor network. How would identify which sites to survey…

I mostly agree but the $100k is only launch cost, it doesn't include the engineering and manufacturing of the satellite or the ongoing operational costs.

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#49

Putting aside the climate aspects and just concentrating on companies that are trying to identify methane leaks: If I have a device that can accurately see methane leaks, I am very surprised it's really more economical to put them on satellites than to operate them locally. Yes, I get that you can have one device in orbit that can do the job for multiple companies, but satellites are just fantastically expensive. Unl…

> why can't companies just survey from the ground?

From a layman's perspective:

(1) the incentive is not aligned to accurately report leaks [1][2][3][4][5]

(2) Satellites provide global monitoring. This reaches to places/countries/regions that are not regulated, and secondly provides monitoring for natural sources of methane emissions (eg: permafrost). For the latter, even if there is nothing to be done about natural emissions, the more accurate data will provide for better modelling and help humans better understand the Earth's ecosystem.

[1] June 2022: "Oil and gas companies underreported methane leaks, new study shows" https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/06/0...

[2] Oct 2023: "Oil and gas companies are missing significant methane emissions. Here’s how to fix that." https://rmi.org/oil-and-gas-companies-are-missing-significan...

[3] "Gross under-reporting of fugitive methane emissions has big implications for industry" https://ieefa.org/resources/gross-under-reporting-fugitive-m...

[4] July 2023: "Australian Fossil Fuels Giants Severely Underestimate Methane Leaks" - "Fugitive — or hidden — methane emissions in the country are likely underestimated by 80% for coal and 90% for oil and gas, a new report from IEEFA say" https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-04/australia...

[5] March 2022 "Stanford-led study: Methane leaks are far worse than estimates, at least in New Mexico, but there’s hope" https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2022/03/24/methane-...

Re: Why are there so many methane satellites?

#50

Putting aside the climate aspects and just concentrating on companies that are trying to identify methane leaks: If I have a device that can accurately see methane leaks, I am very surprised it's really more economical to put them on satellites than to operate them locally. Yes, I get that you can have one device in orbit that can do the job for multiple companies, but satellites are just fantastically expensive. Unl…

Companies and countries tend not to report catastrophic methane leaks (or really any contamination event) unless they're caught in the act. It's absolutely staggering the rate at which methane leaks are identified now that satellite data is being analysed and published.

It'd be much more efficient all round for firms & countries to just test locally & report their methane leaks, but they can't be trusted to do so.

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