Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

stallman.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 245 posts

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#181

Post by RedwoodCity »

jlarocco wrote: post #157
mbreese wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. When I bought a house (and later sold it), the day before, we had the title company forward all of the documents to our lawyer to review. When he gave his okay, I felt perfectly comfortable signing multiple documents that I never read. For something like that, it's important to have someone with some knowledge go over things first. Was I really going to be in a position to slowly read over documen…

It's better than not reading it, but you still don't really know what you're signing. Maybe there's some catch or you're on the hook for something and the lawyer doesn't say anything (or even notice) because it's relatively standard for that kind of contract? Probably a better use of time and money is to have them forward the documents to you, read over them the day before and ask a lawyer if you have any questions.

If your lawyer misses something that does material affect you it is considered legal malpractice. Lawyers can and have been sued over this.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#182

Post by DavidAdams »

Periodic wrote: post #175
davidcuddeback wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always read employment contracts before signing them, too. Last time I did this, the contract said something to the effect of, "The company can modify this agreement at any time without notifying the employee." I immediately crossed out that clause and initialed.

Does that actually work? Is it enforceable? I would imagine that if you sent back a contract with modifications for their review that they would balk at hiring or you would get involved with the lawyers who are so much better at legal negotiating than you are. I definitely would not do that with a consulting contract. The chance that something weird would come up is generally worth it to get a good client.

IANAL, but if you cross something out of a contract, sign it, and the counterparty also signs the contract, then the part you struck out is not part of the contract. The trick is getting the other person who's signing the contract to sign it even though you've crossed things out.

In my experience, people and organizations often purposely make their contracts over-reaching just to be on the safe side, and expect savvy customers/partners to cross those overreaching items off.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#183

Post by stcredzero »

I just paid $44 to fax medical records to health insurance underwriters. The woman at the doctor's office was surprised the underwriters didn't access those records themselves. Also odd, they're also asking for all my other records for the past 5 years, when I already gave permission in a conference call for them to access those records.

Are they deliberately trying to discourage my application by burying me in expense and redundant bureaucratic busywork?

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#184

Post by wccrawford »

epochwolf wrote: post #179
itstriz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst experience I've had with this sort of thing is under release from jail. I've been arrested 3 times for civil disobedience actions and each time on my way out the officer on duty told me to sign some papers indicating the conditions of my release, that I've received all my property, etc. Each time, when I began to read the papers before signing them, they've told me if I don't sign them without reading them,…

> Each time, when I began to read the papers before signing them, they've told me if I don't sign them without reading them, they would put me back in my cell and hold me at least another few hours. Wouldn't that the document since it was signed under duress?

Yes, but who are you going to complain to? The very same cops that just broke the law?

Or maybe he should go through the legal system? He'll spend more money fighting it than anything he lost is worth. And it'll make his life a lot harder.

I'd love to see him fight it, but I certainly don't look down on him for not.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#185

Post by nathanb »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #150

I find arguing with the functionaries at the desk is ineffective, however since they are simply 'doing what they are told' they will often do what you tell them too. I signed a privacy policy where it stipulated the company would pay me $5,000 for each occurrence that it shared any of my information. It went like this: Receptionist: "You need to sign this privacy consent form." Me: "I don't agree with that form so I…

If you tested that in court you would almost certainly find that the receptionist has not been granted the authority to enter the office into legally-binding contracts.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#186

Post by jlarocco »

mbreese wrote: post #166
jlarocco wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's better than not reading it, but you still don't really know what you're signing. Maybe there's some catch or you're on the hook for something and the lawyer doesn't say anything (or even notice) because it's relatively standard for that kind of contract? Probably a better use of time and money is to have them forward the documents to you, read over them the day before and ask a lawyer if you have any questions.

Except, I'm not a lawyer... so if there is something, then I probably wouldn't catch it either. At some point, you have to trust professionals to do their job. Buying a house is a bit different though, because you have the purchase agreement and then you have the contracts you sign at closing. We examined the purchase agreement in depth with our lawyer, since that is what sets the context for the rest of the transact…

> Except, I'm not a lawyer... so if there is something, then I probably wouldn't catch it either. At some point, you have to trust professionals to do their job.

Right, which is why I suggested asking a lawyer if anything in the contract was unclear.

IMO, it seems like having the lawyer read it without reading it yourself is just deferring the decision to the lawyer. How can you convey to the lawyer what you're okay agreeing too, and what you would take issue with? What are you getting out of it above and beyond the "Everybody signs it, so it can't be too bad," approach?

What if, after signing the contract, you find out there's a clause you disagree with, but the lawyer tells you, "Oh, I didn't think you'd mind because that clause is in all of the contracts like this and everybody else is always okay with it."

Maybe it really just depends on how well a person knows and trusts their lawyer?

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#187

Post by _delirium »

legutierr wrote: post #30
antidoh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It must have gotten to the point by now that the mere length of a privacy policy, or EULA, is enough to convince the court that there effectively is no policy or no agreement, signed, seal broken or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contracts_of_adhesion#Contracts...

Unfortunately, more recent jurisprudence in the U.S. has been chipping away at the scrutiny given to contracts of adhesion. In overturning a California Supreme Court decision that greatly restricted arbitration agreements when they were made in the form of contracts of adhesion, Scalia (writing for the court) noted that "the times in which consumer contracts were anything other than adhesive are long past", so California's rule being limited to contracts of adhesion was in practice so broad that it invalidated most arbitration agreements, and therefore interfered with the Federal Arbitration Act (AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion, 2011).

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#188

Post by calloc »

Jun8 wrote: post #155
tomp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nutella was sued and was fined $3.6M just because people couldn't read the clear nutritional sign Did you even read the article? It clearly says that Nutella was sued because it had misleading advertising, saying/implying that it was healthy, when in reality it contains a lot of sugar. I know that Coca-Cola is bad for your health (it's pretty obvious that any sweet drink is bad for your teeth and makes you fat and…

All advertising is misleading in a sense, the question is where to draw the line: the legal complaint ( http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/02/02/Nutella.pdf ) states that the moms were duped because they saw TV commercials that showed moms feeding Nutella to their healthy families. Although I think the ""An example of a tasty yet balanced breakfast." label should be removed from Nuteall jars (which'll be done, http:/…

In the time period listed I've bought WAY more than 5 jars of Nutella, but I don't honestly think that I bought it thinking "Hey this is healthy!".

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#189

Post by johnnyg »

jakejake wrote: post #133
gisikw wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having your lawyer read something is no excuse for not also reading it yourself.

If course we're supposed to read it but in some situations it's not realistic. Buying a house involves hundreds of pages. Unless you're a lawyer, the average person isn't going to recognize loopholes in the contracts. And I don't know many people who would back out on a house sale at that stage, so it's highly unlikely you'd refuse to sign. The only practical way to do that is to get an advance copy of everything. In…

I read each and every page before I purchased my home. I highlighted everything I didn't understand. Most pages looked like bumble bees. I worked questions during a 5 hour session with my realtor. For terms I now understood but didn't agree with, I had two options depending on the type of term it was:

1. Government and HOA stuff was not changing. I could accept it or walk.

2. Seller stuff could change. We made some minor requests and largely got them.

Reasoning:

We were spending 6 figures. The quality of my work would have a major impact on my family for a long time to come. I was newly married and this was my first family related big project. I was damn sure going to understand how interest rates and loans work ("whats a point?", "fixed vs float") and what legal junk we might be getting into.

I got a chance to learn a little about real estate. When life throws you a stack of legal documents, make lemonade.

I also got to vet out the agent. I work hard and have had some business success. I figured one day it would be time for another house and it would be nice to have a long term relationship with a trusted realtor on that one too.

Core point: it is your name on the document, it is a lot of money, it impacts your feature. Exactly how lazy are you to not read it?

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#190

Post by afterburner »

jlarocco wrote: post #157
mbreese wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. When I bought a house (and later sold it), the day before, we had the title company forward all of the documents to our lawyer to review. When he gave his okay, I felt perfectly comfortable signing multiple documents that I never read. For something like that, it's important to have someone with some knowledge go over things first. Was I really going to be in a position to slowly read over documen…

It's better than not reading it, but you still don't really know what you're signing. Maybe there's some catch or you're on the hook for something and the lawyer doesn't say anything (or even notice) because it's relatively standard for that kind of contract? Probably a better use of time and money is to have them forward the documents to you, read over them the day before and ask a lawyer if you have any questions.

Legalese might hide problematic things without your knowing about it. It may very well take a lawyer to spot those issues in the first place, lines which you might gloss over as harmless.
Post reply on HN