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European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

arstechnica.com

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Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#341

Post by hnbad »

pwg wrote: post #20
aurareturn wrote: post #4

Around 10 years ago, I started looking into buying a new car. I couldn't believe the number of cars that switched to touch controls even 10 years ago. It boggles my mind just how car makers thought it was safer/easier to have touch in a car while one is driving. I refused to buy any car that replaced physical buttons with touch controls 10 years ago and I still have this rule today. Then again, it also boggles my min…

> It boggles my mind just how car makers thought it was safer/easier to have touch in a car while one is driving. It is likely that neither safety nor ease of use were part of the automaker's "thought process". It is much more likely that a first misguided "designer" created the first touch panel control and somehow sold it to "management" as being "futuristic" and/or "ahead of the competition". And once the first ca…

There's a simple selling point to touch panels that most people here seem to be missing: it decouples the software/firmware from the hardware.

Car manufacturers want to be able to change cars after they are sold. This can be in the positive via OTA updates that fix firmware issues or in the negative by providing "subscription" features that provide a passive income beyond the initial sale. Tesla has been paving a path here with its grandiose claims of "full self-driving" and industrial manufacturers like John Deere have been experimenting with bringing smartphone-style DRM and rent-seeking to motor vehicles. Replacing as many "hardcoded" physical controls with flexible and fungible virtual controls is a logical part of the transition.

Why bother producing five different physical "editions" if you can just produce one and then downgrade it in four different ways by gimping the firmware or disabling controls in the UI? This way you can also upsell the features later or put them in a subscription model.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#342

Post by masklinn »

evanjrowley wrote: post #125
golergka wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people should be chiming in to say how annoying the click sounds are to the passengers.

I wonder if RGB backlighting would increase or decrease safety.

Modern cars already have a ton of unnecessary RGB backlighting and I hate it so much. It’s really distracting at night to have trim LEDs reflect in every glass surface.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#343

Post by nottorp »

modeless wrote: post #334
klausa wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's at best marginally easier to hit a random physical button on the center console than to hit a single button on the bottom bar of a Tesla screen You presumably typed this out on a keyboard of some sort. Which one can you do more confidently and reliably without looking: — hitting the "u" key on a physical keyboard without looking — hitting the "u" key on a touchscreen keyboard on your most used mobile device?

I can touch type and hit 'u' without looking, sure. But only if my hands start on the home row. This has no relevance for the situation under discussion. I cannot hit the 'u' key on a physical keyboard confidently and reliably without looking if it is mounted on the center console of a car and I am driving with my hands starting on the steering wheel . I always look to position my hand to hit those buttons. Meanwhile…

> But only if my hands start on the home row.

But but... in a car your hands always start on the wheel...

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#344

Post by hankman86 »

benhurmarcel wrote: post #304
tristor wrote: post #66

This was the primary reason I bought my 2024 Mazda3, instead of alternatives in market. The Mazda was the only option that had physical controls for everything. In fact it disables the touch screen altogether when you exceed 10mph, forcing the use of physical controls. It works flawlessly with wireless carplay

It's a shame that Mazda is so late on electric cars. They were a great option.

Agree. Mazda has the best design among Japanese carmakers. They will probably end up as a sub brand of some Chinese EV maker.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#345

Post by Dylan16807 »

lelanthran wrote: post #255
Dylan16807 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your list of other cars that have the same charging network access and self-driving capabilities?

> What's your list of other cars that have the same charging network access and self-driving capabilities? Well, the list of other cars that will kill you if you take your hands of the wheels is ... just about anything, right? And then you're dead, so have no use for a charging network anyway, too. So, basically, for just that one feature , you can use just about any other car. The list is, essentially, everything el…

What if I don't take my hands off.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#346

Post by masklinn »

iforgotpassword wrote: post #228
Kwpolska wrote: post #223

> Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel. What the actual fuck? Who thought that replacing such a common function with the least reliable input method possible (capacitive "buttons") was a good idea? Also, if I get into a rental car or whatever, I don't need to learn basic controls with sane m…

I'm confused now. I haven't been in a current Tesla, but what do we refer to when we say haptic button nowadays? To me that's synonymous to tactile button = physical button, but you talk about capacitive buttons. Did Apple's introduction of haptic feedback for touch somehow shift the meaning?

> To me that's synonymous to tactile button = physical button

Why would we need a synonym for a perfectly working word? A physical button is a physical button, to me a haptic button necessarily means some sort of virtual button as otherwise the haptic properties don’t have to be specified.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#347

Post by nottorp »

sensanaty wrote: post #315
OvbiousError wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel.

That's legitimately insane to me. Plus you don't even get that satisfying clunk of turning the blinkers on. God the future is turning out so lame...

The main problem is you have no tactile confirmation of the blinker status.

They may have left some blinking icon on on the screen, but you're watching the road and don't see it.

They may have left that confirmation 'click' sound on, but you can't hear it because you can't adjust the music volume :)

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#348

Post by modeless »

nottorp wrote: post #343
modeless wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can touch type and hit 'u' without looking, sure. But only if my hands start on the home row. This has no relevance for the situation under discussion. I cannot hit the 'u' key on a physical keyboard confidently and reliably without looking if it is mounted on the center console of a car and I am driving with my hands starting on the steering wheel . I always look to position my hand to hit those buttons. Meanwhile…

> But only if my hands start on the home row. But but... in a car your hands always start on the wheel...

...which is nowhere near the center console, very much unlike the 'u' key's convenient position millimeters from the home row...

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#349

Post by usrusr »

nehal3m wrote: post #231
tmikaeld wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …Teslas. Or at least it was, until they removed the physical turn signal controls. The turn signals wasn’t removed, they moved them to the steering wheel as physical buttons. Which ofc isn’t optimal, because you turn it…

You’re supposed to signal before you turn the wheel. Way too often I see people signaling as they turn, not because they are trying to communicate with other road users but because it’s the law. Indicate your intent first and then take the indicated action.

Yeah, that might actually be an advantage of that new Tesla layout (never seen a Tesla from the inside): small fiddly sensor surfaces on the wheel are best operated while going straight, whereas the stalk keeps tempting the driver to leave operation to the hand movement that happens anyways when starting the turn. Guilty as charged, deeply sorry about that (I don't think it's a regular habit of mine, but we've all seen cars driven like that)

But, as a sibling comment already mentioned: roundabouts! One of the most important indicator engagements is made crazy awkward for people who keep "walking" their hands to neutral position while the wheel is turned instead of wrestling it like some animal.

Which does make me wonder: has any carmaker started engaging turn signals from navigation? I'd imagine that this could be an amazingly subtle user interface for following a route: just don't press the veto button when the car decides to engage indicators and steer as if the indicator decision had been your own. No more following robot voice orders. An established pattern I don't know about? Tried, but turned out to be terrible? Legal uncertainty (or legal negative certainty)?

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#350

Post by nottorp »

martin8412 wrote: post #234
nehal3m wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re supposed to signal before you turn the wheel. Way too often I see people signaling as they turn, not because they are trying to communicate with other road users but because it’s the law. Indicate your intent first and then take the indicated action.

Roundabouts..

> Roundabouts..

And crossroads that aren't at 90 degrees. Like, you know, old cities that weren't built on a grid.

The one time i test drove a Tesla I abandoned a left turn because all the roads involved were curvy enough I couldn't get the turn signal to stay on ;)

Mind, it was just a test drive. I guess that if I practiced for years I could master the wisdom of Tesla controls.

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