European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls • Hacker News Board

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#331

Post by nottorp » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 9:57 AM UTC

modeless wrote: post #207

> Now, Euro NCAP is not insisting on everything being its own button or switch. But the organization wants to see physical controls for turn signals, hazard lights, windshield wipers, the horn, and any SOS features This is much more reasonable than I assumed. Unlike seemingly most people here I have no problem whatsoever with fan controls or audio controls or whatever on the touchscreen, as long as it is responsive (…

> with fan controls

I want at the least a physical recirculate/bring air from outside button.

The use case is coming up behind a vintage truck that was made before they even thought of pollution standards on a winding mountain road where you can't overtake and you need to pay attention to the road. And you also need to set the a/c to recirculate before you suffocate.

For audio... with radio dying or dead I guess you can just run Spotify the whole trip. I'd still like volume and mute buttons.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#332

Post by filcuk » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 9:58 AM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #218

My Ford has no physical buttons for climate control (except “Max”). If I want to direct the air at the windscreen and my feet full blast, I have to: - Tap the fan direction button - wait 2 seconds for it to load - tap windscreen and feet. Each selection lags at least 1 second - tap fan speed - drag a narrow, laggy slider up/down to the desired position I hate it. The auto setting doesn’t blow the feet hard enough whe…

MG4, when I turn on A/C or defog, the navigation is overlayed by an A/C controls screen, which must be tapped in a specific small area to get rid of it. I still fumble with it every damn time after six months of use.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#333

Post by harry8 » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 9:59 AM UTC

Slartie wrote: post #326

ClikeX wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Volume control is a very commonly used feature in cars. That should definitely should be a physical button. I drive a Lynk & Co (reskinned Volvo XC40) and it has a rotary knob on the center terminal for fan speed, temperature, and volume. Which are all within reach without me having to look or lean over. There's also a volume button on the steering wheel next to my thumb, which is great. The only annoying part is tha…

But you are not legally required to use the volume control regularly in order to drive safely. You are not even legally required to have any kind of volume control in your car. You are legally required to have and use the turn signals. You are legally required to have and use the windshield wipers (because you need to be able to see the road when it's raining). Same is true for the horn and hazard lights - those are…

Volume control is pretty damn safety critical when the driver takes their eyes off the road to jab at the f&^king miserable touchscreen and accidentally wipes out your family.

Sir Issac Newton wrote down the laws about piloting a couple of ton of steel some time ago. Very unlikely to be repealed.

Every control that will be used by the driver for any purpose whilst the vehicle is in motion is safety critical.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#334

Post by modeless » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 10:00 AM UTC

klausa wrote: post #327

modeless wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overstated. It's at best marginally easier to hit a random physical button on the center console than to hit a single button on the bottom bar of a Tesla screen, where it is very easy to grab by design. I generally don't hit those physical buttons without at least a glance, and that's all it takes for the Tesla bottom bar buttons too. This doesn't save the wiper situation, though, because that requires navigating men…

> It's at best marginally easier to hit a random physical button on the center console than to hit a single button on the bottom bar of a Tesla screen You presumably typed this out on a keyboard of some sort. Which one can you do more confidently and reliably without looking: — hitting the "u" key on a physical keyboard without looking — hitting the "u" key on a touchscreen keyboard on your most used mobile device?

I can touch type and hit 'u' without looking, sure. But only if my hands start on the home row. This has no relevance for the situation under discussion. I cannot hit the 'u' key on a physical keyboard confidently and reliably without looking if it is mounted on the center console of a car and I am driving with my hands starting on the steering wheel. I always look to position my hand to hit those buttons. Meanwhile, the Tesla bottom bar buttons are far easier to hit than any key on my phone keyboard because they are much larger and mounted in a fixed position relative to me with a built in place to rest and align my hand. These situations are completely incomparable.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#335

Post by darkwater » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 10:00 AM UTC

sensanaty wrote: post #310

darkwater wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had cars in which for the life of me I could not ever remember which part of which stalk controlled the wipers and which part controlled the lights. Ah, and then there are Volkswagen and Opel which had the light control as a wheel outside the wheel-drive, on the bottom left, and you had to take a hand off to modify it. My point: just having physical controls doesn't mean it is easy or safe to use, if the layout suc…

I haven't driven that many different cars in my life, but isn't it usually the stick on the same side as the driver's seat? Aka if the driver's seat is on the right, then the blinkers are on the right, and the other way around in left-seated cars? I switch between Indonesia and EU fairly often and most cars I've driven followed that pattern as far as I can remember (maybe I just never noticed though)

Yeah but there might be 2 stalks on that side. Also in some car you need to pull the stalk down X positions, in others you have to rotate a crown, so it really depends.

The safest solution is to have properly working automatic wipers (UNLIKE current Tesla, where wipers are complete dogshit) so you just don't care. The same for lights.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#336

Post by hnbad » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 10:00 AM UTC

arghwhat wrote: post #215

Beldin wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around here the middle one is to stop, left is to switch gears. Except in go-karts, those only have 2 pedals.

Remember to press both left and center pedals to stop. Manuals proliferate in EU, but we have also always had automatics on the road - and a significant increase since DSGs hit the market - so no one who has driven a few normal cars would be surprised by two pedals in an electric.

I think "proliferate" is the wrong word. Automatics seem to be on the rise - I learned on a manual but have only been driving automatics for a decade. They're also more accessible and I'm not sure there are any EVs that emulate manual transmission as there's literally no point. So if anything, manuals are largely on the way out.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#337

Post by oven9342 » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 10:02 AM UTC

stby wrote: post #268

oven9342 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have already died because of the screens “The ship's user interface [touch screen] was found to have contributed to the sailors' confusion.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_S._McCain_and_Alnic_M...

Seems to be a US Navy thing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Potential_... ). On a more serious note, there's a big difference between a vehicle like a car that is operated by one person, and a ship with a large crew with dedicated tasks.

Each crew member should have been assigned the management and activation of a given portion of the touchscreen.

Morning briefing by the Captain: “John, you’ll supervise and operate the bottom left corner of the Touchscreen. Adam, as a left handed sailor, you’ll stand right to John and operate the bottom right corner of the Touchscreen with your left hand so there are no collisions in case of emergency”

Aye, captain

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#338

Post by hawski » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 10:02 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #244

martin8412 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roundabouts..

Correct. But then maybe OP lives somewhere where roundabouts aren't very common so they never ran into that usecase.

In my country there are a lot of roundabouts, but also crossroads do happen on a quite tight curve especially in smaller cities.

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#339

Post by yurishimo » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 10:03 AM UTC

sensanaty wrote: post #315

OvbiousError wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Tesla is probably at greatest risk here, having recently ditched physical stalks that instead move the turn signal functions to haptic buttons on the steering wheel.

That's legitimately insane to me. Plus you don't even get that satisfying clunk of turning the blinkers on. God the future is turning out so lame...

Some parts of the future are always lame! But luckily, they can get better if at least one person cares enough to make facilitate the change :)

Re: European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls

#340

Post by Slartie » Tue, Mar 05, 2024, 10:04 AM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #333

Slartie wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are not legally required to use the volume control regularly in order to drive safely. You are not even legally required to have any kind of volume control in your car. You are legally required to have and use the turn signals. You are legally required to have and use the windshield wipers (because you need to be able to see the road when it's raining). Same is true for the horn and hazard lights - those are…

Volume control is pretty damn safety critical when the driver takes their eyes off the road to jab at the f&^king miserable touchscreen and accidentally wipes out your family. Sir Issac Newton wrote down the laws about piloting a couple of ton of steel some time ago. Very unlikely to be repealed. Every control that will be used by the driver for any purpose whilst the vehicle is in motion is safety critical.

That is true, but in that mind your kid in the back seat is safety-critical, so maybe we mandate no kids in the back? Or your wife next to you in the passenger seat, she could also make you remove your eyes from the road (happens quite a lot actually) - mandate no wifes in the passenger seat anymore?

You need to draw a line, otherwise really anything in your car can be safety-critical, you just need to imagine the right circumstances.

I would draw the line at the controls that are mandated by law. Every control mandated by law should not only be mandated to exist, but also be mandated to exist as a physical, easily reachable button.

> Every control that will be used by the driver for any purpose whilst the vehicle is in motion is safety critical.

Okay, that's at least limiting it somewhat. However, what about the setting for Bluetooth connectivity of the radio? It technically can be used while driving, and there's probably a non-zero count of people who have already used such a setting while driving to pair their phone or whatever. What about the time/date setting of the clock in your car? Same thing. Physical buttons for all of that?