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The FBI took -- and mysteriously returned -- their server

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Re: The FBI took -- and mysteriously returned -- their server

#21

I'm a student at the University of Pittsburgh. From that point of view, this seems like a perfectly fine action to take. The FBI agents may have disrupted service to a few hundred users, but these threats were affecting thousands of people. I don't know if these anonymous email threats were unprecedented or not, but they certainly present a huge challenge to law enforcement. What would have happened if the people res…

Up-vote because many people feel this way, so it's important to discuss. But I strongly disagree.

From that point of view, this seems like a perfectly fine action to take.

There's certainly an argument to be made in support of your statement. If we were to work in a purely utilitarian manner, there would be little room for argument.

But the design of the structure of civil rights we have in America doesn't work that way. We recognize that people have certain inherent, inalienable right. Even if stripping someone's rights would save tremendous tragedy, our philosophical underpinnings prevent it.

We don't condone torture (unless you're the current President or his predecessor), even when we might be able to extract information that could save many.

We could save many thousand people who are sick, and destined to die, waiting in vain for organ transplants. Just pick somebody's name out of a hat, and divide up his organs -- a liver, a heart, a couple of kidneys. For each life we took, we could save four or more others (not to mention improving others with cornea transplants, etc.). But despite the fact that utilitarian balance says that the net benefit to society would be positive, our system will not even contemplate such an action.

Those examples are extreme, but they illustrate the point that we don't take actions that injure innocent people (and remember, everyone is innocent until proven guilty) even when they can save many others.

Re: The FBI took -- and mysteriously returned -- their server

#22
post #20
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still doesn't make much sense. The client is going to figure it out. Also, a search warrant doesn't give the Feds the ability to put it back. Maybe with a national security letter for the purpose of putting spyware on it? But even then the server owner is going to notice that their server went missing for a couple days. "Must have gone for a long walk. Glad it's back," is not how I would approach it.

> Still doesn't make much sense. On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. It gives the FBI or any law enforcement agency sufficient leeway to do as they please, which is always the intent of such laws. > The client is going to figure it out. The only thing the client knows is that their server isn't working. Not that they are about to be raped by the feds.

1) Their actions don't make sense. The law is what it is.

2) In this case the Feds had already paid them a visit. If they are trying to run a covert surveillance operation they really suck at it. Even without the FBI visit I am still going to figure out what the hell happened to my server.

Worst wire tap job ever? Helpful FBI agents with experience in network operations want to make up for needlessly inconveniencing someone? Some other three letter agency tells them, "we were using that, could you put it back?" ?

Re: The FBI took -- and mysteriously returned -- their server

#23
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NFW. I'd build a new machine from scratch, at a different datacenter, using pristine code and data from backups. Once a machine has been in an adversary's possession, not even the data is safe. That said, the FBI probably just imaged the drives. They're not as clueful/devious as many think they are.

They do hire clueful contractors once in a while.

Correct. But the guys were probably Special Agents and were from the data forensics group that are recruited into the DoJ specifically for their IT skills.

It's also possible that there was a Special Agent + Contractor team working.

BTW, they are probably not very happy that video evidence of their activities was captured and published. Don't look for them to make that mistake again.

Re: The FBI took -- and mysteriously returned -- their server

#25
post #23
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do hire clueful contractors once in a while.

Correct. But the guys were probably Special Agents and were from the data forensics group that are recruited into the DoJ specifically for their IT skills. It's also possible that there was a Special Agent + Contractor team working. BTW, they are probably not very happy that video evidence of their activities was captured and published. Don't look for them to make that mistake again.

[deleted]

Re: The FBI took -- and mysteriously returned -- their server

#26
Here is my question...

If you rent an apartment, even though you don't own the building, you have "rights of tenant in possession". Basically the apartment is "yours" and you have rights. If a search warrant is to be served to search your place, it gets served on YOU, not the owner of the buildng.

If you rent server space, like a rack in a datacenter, that space is "yours". So should the search warrant have been honored?

Re: The FBI took -- and mysteriously returned -- their server

#29

I'm a student at the University of Pittsburgh. From that point of view, this seems like a perfectly fine action to take. The FBI agents may have disrupted service to a few hundred users, but these threats were affecting thousands of people. I don't know if these anonymous email threats were unprecedented or not, but they certainly present a huge challenge to law enforcement. What would have happened if the people res…

Up-vote because many people feel this way, so it's important to discuss. But I strongly disagree. From that point of view, this seems like a perfectly fine action to take. There's certainly an argument to be made in support of your statement. If we were to work in a purely utilitarian manner, there would be little room for argument. But the design of the structure of civil rights we have in America doesn't work that…

I think that you've taken this too far. We can't make blanket statements about peoples rights and expect them to be applicable in every situation.

In this case, a legal authority made the decision to interrupt a service for a small period of time in order to investigate a terrorist act that was disrupting the lives of thousands of people daily. If this was, say, a service that was providing medical assistance to elderly people, I don't think the same decision would have been made.

Re: The FBI took -- and mysteriously returned -- their server

#30
Im surprised nobody is discussing the reason for the pull. Obviously the FBI has copied all the data on the server and are now using a backdoor in the encryption or brute force cracking to get into the information.

There is no such thing as safe data once the physical server is confiscated, and people shouldnt trust standard encryption algorithms to be safe from backdoors.

Microsoft Windows has had backdoors for a long time I reckon. Some of it are called "bugs" once its discoved and fixed with Windows Updates. Other stuff gets introduced that way as well.

Or they could have port knocking techniques built into the closed source kernel to allow people who know the code to enter the computer without any trace.

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