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How to be a good listener

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Re: How to be a good listener

#121

Post by CadmiumYellow »

mvkel wrote: post #111
sooheon wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Level 4 is noticing the same things as 3 but not calling attention to it so conspicuously and presumptuously.

That would still be listening level 1. If you're asking questions and worried about how it makes you look, that's focusing on yourself. My examples don't come across good via text; I would edit more fleshed out ones if I could. But in any context, if you're focused on yourself, you're not listening.

Uhhhh no it's focusing on the fact that responding to someone in the way you describe as level 3 makes people uncomfortable. You want to put the other person at ease so you consciously avoid revealing the ways in which you've analyzed their behavior. Nobody wants to feel like they're being observed so intensely by the person they're talking to.

Re: How to be a good listener

#122

Post by CadmiumYellow »

elevaet wrote: post #14

> 5. Don’t relate. I see this recommendation all the time, but I know I do it all the time, and personally I often _like_ it when other people do it to me. Sometimes it's nice to commiserate or share a connection on a similar experience, and maybe even learn from what the other person already went through. Does anyone else question this common piece of advice? Can't relating be useful if it's not being used to steer…

I think conversation is one of those things that can't be distilled down into an exact science. You just have to figure out what is and isn't a good thing to say based on the context and they other person's behavior and tone. Any list like this will always feel off because good listening is an intuitive process.

Re: How to be a good listener

#123

Post by kelseyfrog »

jodrellblank wrote: post #77
deprecative wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yeah. It is manipulation. It's at best benevolent manipulation but that's what it is. That's what most human interaction is, though.

Caring enough to listen, then communicating that you actually did listen by repeating some of the words they said back to them. How is that manipulation? In this context, wouldn't manipulation be where you don't listen then say some words which try to (falsely) communicate that you did listen? (Contrast: not listening, and showing that with "I ain't reading all that. I'm happy for u tho. Or sorry that happened". Cont…

There is a nuanced, but important point to make here regarding responsibility.

One of resources I watched (a therapist) described therapy as 90% active listening. It's important to be aware of that proportion and the tendency of people to really open up when someone is truly listening.

For example, I was at a bar talking to a stranger when they had to take a break. They were on the brink of tears because they were talking about something that was so deeply meaningful to them[1]. I missed the flag and will always think back to my responsibility - just to pick up on those signs and ask the person if they're doing ok. There's a vulnerability index which I like to reference that conceptualizes some of this.

The difference between open inquiry and probing/drilling is an important distinction to keep in mind when listening too. Laying some of these skills on too thickly can come across as more of an interview than a conversation.

1. Palestine

Re: How to be a good listener

#124

Post by CadmiumYellow »

Xcelerate wrote: post #45

The weirdest thing is when someone interrupts you, you point it out, and then they get mad, as though you had the audacity to point out their interruption. It’s the most bizarre thing. After many times of this occurring with one family member in particular, I’ve sort of passive aggressively started responding “Sorry, I didn’t mean for the middle of my sentence to interrupt the beginning of yours.” But sometimes they…

This is one of those tricky things...interrupting someone is rude but pointing it out is rude too. It makes the tone of the conversation confrontational, which will almost never be received positively. The best way to deal with being interrupted is to handle it gracefully in the moment and if it continues to be an issue eventually address it with the person in a way that doesn't feel accusatory. A lot of people don't even realize that they're doing it or they're used to a different conversational style where it's normalized to interject when you have something to say. You can't call someone else out for being rude and expect them to be happy about it, especially if it's for something they're not aware that they're doing or that they personally don't consider rude.

Re: How to be a good listener

#125

Post by coldtea »

lkdfjlkdfjlg wrote: post #69
coldtea wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rather the opposite: if you could just go with what the person says to understand what they mean, then listening would be reallyyyyy easy.

> It's rather the opposite: if you could just go with what the person says to understand what they mean, then listening would be reallyyyyy easy. Then I must be really good as listening, because I always believe I know what people are going to say.

That's orthogonal though - wha they are going to say is not the same as what they mean.

Good at listening means "understanding what they meant" (not necessarily, or even usually, what they said) and also "make them feel heard".

Re: How to be a good listener

#126

Post by CadmiumYellow »

CipherThrowaway wrote: post #48

I'm no expert on listening, but I think do have a sense of when I personally feel heard. I don't agree with this piece at all, and I don't like the vibe of the author. The very first paragraph has a narcissism in it that rubs me the wrong way. Like the whole world let her down for not centering her in conversations the way her therapist caretaker did. > Some simple and powerful phrases to use when someone is feeling…

I have a family member with BPD and this feels like the kind of article she would write. She loooooves hearing those hollow therapist-isms that I personally find artificial and deeply alienating. Someone commented elsewhere that the author of this piece committed suicide in 2020 and her husband published a memoir about her in which he suggested that she might have BPD...so that tracks. It reads like a manual for how to have a conversation that completely centers the other person in a way that the majority of people would find uncomfortable and disingenuous but that appeals to someone with cluster B tendencies whose main goal in relating to other people is to feel emotionally validated and cared for at all times. It's not a good strategy for relating to a normal person; normal people enjoy reciprocal conversations that feel authentic and involve a healthy degree of relating to the other person's experience.

My family member with BPD isn't really capable of connecting with other people in a reciprocal way...she only understands relationships in which she is the caretaker or she is the one being taken care of emotionally, so she sees all relationships through the lens of that dynamic. That's the vibe I get from this author as well.

Re: How to be a good listener

#127

Post by CadmiumYellow »

Etherlord87 wrote: post #58
CipherThrowaway wrote: post #48

I'm no expert on listening, but I think do have a sense of when I personally feel heard. I don't agree with this piece at all, and I don't like the vibe of the author. The very first paragraph has a narcissism in it that rubs me the wrong way. Like the whole world let her down for not centering her in conversations the way her therapist caretaker did. > Some simple and powerful phrases to use when someone is feeling…

I agree with you completely. The more I think about the article, the more I wonder - why would such ridiculous thing be voted up on HN? How to listen to someone: if someone is angry, don't listen to him at all and just imagine that he says he's hurt. Sorry, but that's just idiotic.

It's because a lot of people who frequent HN have difficulty with social skills and are always looking for a manual for how to handle tricky interpersonal situations. The problem is that their difficulty with social skills renders them not-so-great at assessing the quality of advice about social interaction so they upvote things that they think sound nice or valuable without realizing that that's not actually the case. I hope this comment doesn't come across as judgmental or mean, it's just something I've noticed as a person who works in tech but has always had strong social and communication skills. This article describes a communication style that is repellent to anyone with normal social skills who doesn't have cluster B tendencies.

Re: How to be a good listener

#128

Post by jimkleiber »

aidenn0 wrote: post #110
jimkleiber wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you meant, you doing them or the other person doing them?

Me doing them. E.g if I'm making eye contact with you, I'm thinking about making eye contact with you, not what you're saying.

Ahhh, ok, I hear you now. I wonder if just practicing the skills more, maybe even in a practice environment, would help you feel more comfortable with them.

Have you found that over time there have been some things you feel more and more comfortable doing?

Re: How to be a good listener

#129

Post by [deleted] »

StefanBatory wrote: post #101
CipherThrowaway wrote: post #48

I'm no expert on listening, but I think do have a sense of when I personally feel heard. I don't agree with this piece at all, and I don't like the vibe of the author. The very first paragraph has a narcissism in it that rubs me the wrong way. Like the whole world let her down for not centering her in conversations the way her therapist caretaker did. > Some simple and powerful phrases to use when someone is feeling…

"Replace all of the shocking, mean, hateful, incorrect, ignorant, offensive, cruel things coming out of this person’s mouth with “I’m hurt! I’m hurt! I’m hurt! I’m hurt. I’m hurrrrt.” This is narcissistic logic. When people are angry at you, and attacking you - and they do not have a clinical mood or personality disorder - you must accept that there may be a reason behind it. Things said in the heat of the moment are…

[deleted]

Re: How to be a good listener

#130

Post by pepve »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #112
unsupp0rted wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on several dates like this. The other person talks about themselves for 30 ~ 90 minutes, exclusively, depending on how charitable I'm feeling that day. They don't ask me any questions about me at all. Like, not even one. I ask myself if it's because they're like that on any date with any person, or because they realized at first sight they weren't interested in me, so it doesn't matter to them if they learn…

There is a friend in my life who I meet with regularly in a small group setting that falls into this category - never seeming to reciprocate. When I imagine asking him, "What don't you ask questions about my life?" I assume I'd get a response something like, "You can tell me anything," or "I'm open to hearing what you want to talk about," or "You're free to talk about anything." If I had to devise a quick mental mode…

> When I imagine asking him, "What don't you ask questions about my life?" I assume I'd get a response something like, "You can tell me anything," or "I'm open to hearing what you want to talk about," or "You're free to talk about anything."

I think this is the insight!

> If I had to devise a quick mental model, it might seem like the difference between talking at someone vs talking with someone?

(And I think this is semantics.)

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