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Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

jzhwu.blogspot.com

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Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#131

Post by tantalor »

creamyhorror wrote: post #71
tantalor wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point, which is very persuasive, but this case is ambiguous because it could be interpreted in either way. As an agreement between the employer and employee, the agreement might be interpreted to apply only to active employees, and on resignation vanishes. Suppose a company's expense report policy does not clarify whether they will fulfill expenses incurred during employment but filed after resignation. Th…

> As an agreement between the employer and employee, the agreement might be interpreted to apply only to active employees, and on resignation vanishes. The agreement was fulfilled when the referee completed his 6 months, no? At that point it became a debt that the company owed jzhwu, and he only quit a month after. I don't think debts immediately disappear when you quit a company (unless you sign some sort of agreeme…

> At that point it became a debt that the company owed jzhwu

I considered this, too. Obviously I agree that, if it were a debt, then he is entitled to it, and that the debt cannot disappear.

But what if it's not a debt? I think that the debt exists if the creditor makes a claim. Perhaps by not asking for his bonus, the employee lost his opportunity to make a claim, and cannot make a claim after resigning.

Your suggest he claim the debt at any time. How long is he allowed he wait? 10 years? 100 years?

All I'm asking is that you see how this could be argued either way! Obviously a court (or case law) would decide one way or another, but until that point it is ambiguous.

Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#132

Post by officialchicken »

jpeg_hero wrote: post #123

The number one lesson I learned from this saga is: Do not hire Joshua Wu.

My number one:

There are many more apologetic pro-corporation white knights here than I expected, and Miso is an organization to avoid.

Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#133

Post by planetguy »

E14n wrote: post #80
its_so_on wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me tell you my perspective, which may be interesting. The company Miso has good points about the reason for the program. In the original exchange the points were brought up. To me, the points were brought up one email too late. The moment the first response was Josh, let me talk to Tim. After you lost our data and caused our entire company to scramble for 3 days, I am hesitant , I saw this as. "Let me think of ho…

I don't know what the culture is like at Miso but I would take "After you lost our data and caused our entire company to scramble for 3 days, I am hesitant." as "How do I justify to the rest of the team paying you an exorbitant bonus for team building after you trashed a production system that cost the team 3 days of work, then quit." Not that this changes the fact that they should have paid.

Reading between the lines I was assuming the guy got fired for the screwup.

Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#135

Post by mgkimsal »

veemjeem wrote: post #87
javajosh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the email stream, the CEO wanted to withhold the referral bonus as a punitive measure for a work-related mistake. His subsequent "apology" in the comments tried to unring that bell, instead blaming an "unclear" referral policy for the "misunderstanding". The first act was unethical, the second was egotistical, and both judgements are based on the CEO's own choice of words, not Josh's.

"work related mistake"? If anything, the CTO should be blamed here... it's not hard to do a sql dump on the hour for backups.

we don't know the size of the db involved. multi-gig dbs dumping every hour may be production-limiting.

Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#136

Post by MortenK »

MortenK wrote: post #97

The engineer came off very combative and threatening from the start. After just 3 emails , he publishes a one sided case with the sole purpose of instigating an internet witch hunt. Based on such an aggressive attitude from the get-go, it seems likely there is significant history between Misu and the guy that we don't know about. Misu surely doesn't look good in this case, but neither does he. A lot of employers will…

Wow, put down the pitchforks guys.

Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#137

Post by jbooth »

ekianjo wrote: post #74
mturmon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually attributed to Lincoln: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

If this is attributed to Lincoln, that kind of phrase does not play to his own advantage. (hint: read "The Real Lincoln" if you are interested).

Holy shit that book looks bad.

From the inside cover: "DiLorenzo portrays the sixteenth president as a man who devoted his political career to revolutionizing the American form of government from one that was very limited in scope and highly decentralized?as the Founding Fathers intended?to a highly centralized, activist state. Standing in his way, however, was the South, with its independent states, its resistance to the national government, and its reliance on unfettered free trade."

No mention of, you know, slavery? Or the fact that southern states seceded before he was even inaugurated? I'd like to see a Venn Diagram of people who like this book and people who own confederate flags.

Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#138

Post by 286c8cb04bda »

tantalor wrote: post #131
creamyhorror wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an agreement between the employer and employee, the agreement might be interpreted to apply only to active employees, and on resignation vanishes. The agreement was fulfilled when the referee completed his 6 months, no? At that point it became a debt that the company owed jzhwu, and he only quit a month after. I don't think debts immediately disappear when you quit a company (unless you sign some sort of agreeme…

> At that point it became a debt that the company owed jzhwu I considered this, too. Obviously I agree that, if it were a debt, then he is entitled to it, and that the debt cannot disappear. But what if it's not a debt? I think that the debt exists if the creditor makes a claim. Perhaps by not asking for his bonus, the employee lost his opportunity to make a claim, and cannot make a claim after resigning. Your sugges…

> Perhaps by not asking for his bonus, the employee lost his opportunity to make a claim, and cannot make a claim after resigning.

That would depend in the terms specified in the contract. If the entirety of the contract is the email message which says "We'll pay 10K for a referral that lasts 6 months", then it defaults to the contract laws in their state. I can guarantee that the contract laws of their state do not say "debts owed to employees are void after employment is terminated."

> How long is he allowed he wait? 10 years? 100 years?

Most, probably all, states also have a law defining what the limit on collecting a debt is. It usually falls between 3 and 6 years, and is considerably longer in a few.

Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#139

Post by MattRogish »

ericb wrote: post #113
michaelochurch wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw this as. "Let me think of how I can not pay you." It's a (thinly) veiled threat. Of course, it's irrelevant to what's being discussed, but it's a way of saying "I can embarrass you with this irrelevant issue if you press this" without actually saying it. Classic extortion tactic. Since Josh printed the exchange in full, they no longer have this on him. Still, I don't know if it's a smart move on his part. He co…

> These kinds of fuckups rarely have only one person at fault Fat fingering an rm -rf or corrupting a DB, if you have good backup policies, should generally not cause End of Days.

Exactly. Accidentally deleting a database should be a minor concern in any well-run company. It'll be painful and annoying, but shouldn't cause "scrambling" for "3 days". The ire should be directed at management that allowed that condition to exist, not the person that fat-fingered something.

Re: Miso pays disputed $10k referral bonus to ex-engineer, apologizes

#140

Post by gaius »

mgkimsal wrote: post #135
veemjeem wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"work related mistake"? If anything, the CTO should be blamed here... it's not hard to do a sql dump on the hour for backups.

we don't know the size of the db involved. multi-gig dbs dumping every hour may be production-limiting.

Well, I've worked on a 50T DB doing 800G of changes per hour, which was recoverable to any point in time. That's not even particularly big by today's standards.
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