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My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

stallman.org

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Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#41

Post by vacri »

chrisacky wrote: post #4

Could you imagine at the extremes if you had been refused treatment because of your refusal to sign this document, to which you knew to be untrue, and to which they could not provide you with the policy. I studied law for four years (haven't qualified) , but I'm still not even sure on the liability on this one (if there is any at all in this hypothetical). It just shows how bureaucratic everything has become when a p…

The privacy policy wasn't 3000 pages. Either Stallman didn't remember the story correctly, or more likely the receptionist was just making up a number to scare him off pursuing the issue. Even the thickest novels don't make it to 3000 pages; very few make it to 1000.

Hell, I'd be surprised if the privacy policy hit 3 pages.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#42

Post by wccrawford »

jrs235 wrote: post #36
chrisacky wrote: post #4

Could you imagine at the extremes if you had been refused treatment because of your refusal to sign this document, to which you knew to be untrue, and to which they could not provide you with the policy. I studied law for four years (haven't qualified) , but I'm still not even sure on the liability on this one (if there is any at all in this hypothetical). It just shows how bureaucratic everything has become when a p…

Additionally, what about the fact that if the woman knew the Privacy Policy was 3000 pages and in a binder (which she claimed to be aware of) and knowingly accepts a statement she strongly believes to be untrue? Is this enough to invalidate the "contract" because it is blatantly known that full disclosure and meeting of the minds has not been met? This also comes to mind during mortgages and car loans. Often the clos…

When I bought a car, I read mine and they weren't surprised or upset. They patiently waited while I read it and initialed that I had done so.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#43

Post by techdmn »

jrs235 wrote: post #36
chrisacky wrote: post #4

Could you imagine at the extremes if you had been refused treatment because of your refusal to sign this document, to which you knew to be untrue, and to which they could not provide you with the policy. I studied law for four years (haven't qualified) , but I'm still not even sure on the liability on this one (if there is any at all in this hypothetical). It just shows how bureaucratic everything has become when a p…

Additionally, what about the fact that if the woman knew the Privacy Policy was 3000 pages and in a binder (which she claimed to be aware of) and knowingly accepts a statement she strongly believes to be untrue? Is this enough to invalidate the "contract" because it is blatantly known that full disclosure and meeting of the minds has not been met? This also comes to mind during mortgages and car loans. Often the clos…

I the first time I closed on a house, realizing ten minutes in that either I was going to be signing contracts without reading them, or everyone was going to be sitting around watching me read for three hours. There's a lot of pressure in a situation like that, even though I try never to sign anything without reading it.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#44

Post by Tloewald »

vacri wrote: post #41
chrisacky wrote: post #4

Could you imagine at the extremes if you had been refused treatment because of your refusal to sign this document, to which you knew to be untrue, and to which they could not provide you with the policy. I studied law for four years (haven't qualified) , but I'm still not even sure on the liability on this one (if there is any at all in this hypothetical). It just shows how bureaucratic everything has become when a p…

The privacy policy wasn't 3000 pages. Either Stallman didn't remember the story correctly, or more likely the receptionist was just making up a number to scare him off pursuing the issue. Even the thickest novels don't make it to 3000 pages; very few make it to 1000. Hell, I'd be surprised if the privacy policy hit 3 pages.

Stallmsn didn't say it was 3000 pages long.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#45

Post by jahewson »

antidoh wrote: post #24
droithomme wrote: post #22

I've run into the same routine with medical professionals. Also, many of these privacy notices have a clause that they can disclose your private information for certain reasons, then a list which includes "advertising and marketing" purposes with other entities. When I ask about this I am always told they would never do that, it is a standard notice and no one other than me has ever said anything. When I refuse to si…

It must have gotten to the point by now that the mere length of a privacy policy, or EULA, is enough to convince the court that there effectively is no policy or no agreement, signed, seal broken or not.

Either way because it's a License and not a Contract, by default you have no rights to use the software.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#46

Post by wccrawford »

r4vik wrote: post #13
drostie wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. As it says on the bottom, "Copyright 2011 Richard Stallman released under Creative Commons Attribution Noderivs 3.0 unported". It's a surprising statement for many reasons. First, I have traditionally thought of CC as somehow opposed to GNU, but here's Stallman releasing with CC. Second, it's a 2011 document -- had he not been to a doctor prior to 2011? unlikely, so maybe he just never noticed what he was signi…

He releases his books under GNU FDL, so they can be remixed. But I assume he doesn't want people changing his blog posts. Makes sense to me.

I think there's a fundamental difference, too. His books are fiction. (Or fact. I dunno, I didn't read them.) His blog posts are his personal opinion. I would definitely treat their contents differently.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#47

Post by jrs235 »

techdmn wrote: post #43
jrs235 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, what about the fact that if the woman knew the Privacy Policy was 3000 pages and in a binder (which she claimed to be aware of) and knowingly accepts a statement she strongly believes to be untrue? Is this enough to invalidate the "contract" because it is blatantly known that full disclosure and meeting of the minds has not been met? This also comes to mind during mortgages and car loans. Often the clos…

I the first time I closed on a house, realizing ten minutes in that either I was going to be signing contracts without reading them, or everyone was going to be sitting around watching me read for three hours. There's a lot of pressure in a situation like that, even though I try never to sign anything without reading it.

Yup. When I closed on my home I had to figure out to handle that too. It blows the minds of the people in the room away if you sit there and read over the thing... and then ask questions for clarifications. It also [sometimes can] pisses them off cause they plan on 15 to 30 minutes for closing... so if you take your time and go over it ask questions it throws their whole schedule off. When I refinanced the credit union was smart enough to send copies of what I would be signing ahead of time so I could read over it and ask any questions prior to the ceremony of signing it in front of the notary public.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#48

Post by mseebach »

gizzlon wrote: post #29

What happens if you just sign with a fake name? Is it still binding? They lie, you lie ..

What you write is inconsequential, it's that fact that you do that is important. If you can't write (not a big issue today, but has been not too long ago), you can sign with a X.

The signature itself doesn't carry a lot of weight. Signatures given under threat or deceit are void - which is why important stuff needs to be witnessed or notarized.

Re: My Doctor's Office Asked Me To Lie

#49

Post by wccrawford »

stordoff wrote: post #34
joshuafcole wrote: post #8

It's not exactly an isolated case. When I turned 18 I was presented with the same document. To my mother's dismay, I pointed out the flaws and then marked in the necessary negatives in pen to render the document useless before signing it. Since the other party (a member with legal power at the clinic) did not sign after me, I'm not sure the form is actually binding on either of us. Could somebody clarify what precede…

There usually is no need for them to sign it. They offer, you accept (with your signature as evidence), which is the essence of a contract. There is no need for them to "accept your acceptance". As you changed the document, it may or may not be binding. Effectively you offered them new terms, and I wouldn't like to speculate as to if they accepted them (e.g. by treating you).

They need to accept the changes, if any. The lack of a place for them to sign is proof that they intended for it to be signed as-is, or not at all.

Contracts aren't valid unless both parties have accepted them. The doctor's office can't accept a contract they haven't read yet, and any changes to a contract make it a new contract.

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