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How to be a good listener

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Re: How to be a good listener

#51
post #44

A few times on LinkedIn I’ve complained about people “story topping” like #5 in the article. Each time I’ve been brigaded by people who say that’s a “neurodiverse” trait and I’m being an insensitive clod.

There are two sides to that coin.

The people in autism research these days, at least on the sociological end of things, well tell you about the "double empathy problem" (after Milton, 2012 - it's enough of a "thing" now that it has its own wikipedia page). The idea is that if you put one autistic person in a group of "neurotypicals", it'll seem as if they are bad at relating to people - but in a group of (sufficiently high-functioning) autistic people, sometimes everyone gets on just fine, and if you put a single non-autistic person in a group of autistic people, an observer might conclude that they are the one having difficulty "reading the room" and relating to the unspoken norms of the group. It's as if, to make an analogy, autistic people are not worse at picking up "signals" from other people, they're just signalling on a slightly different wavelength.

And certainly, relating to others by sharing your own simliar stories is a big thing in some neurodiverse groups, where it is often experienced as a positive. But that then intersects with other cultural aspects, for example the stiff-upper-lib Brits versus outgoing Americans stereotype, with neurodiverse people acting as their own subculture if you like.

Sharing your own story is hardly a uniquely autistic trait though: imagine you meet a new co-worker, share that you like Nightwish, and they go "oh, I love them too! I saw them live in Helsinki back in 2022!" and before you know it, you've made a new friend over shared taste in music even if what they did is technically story-topping.

But, if you are line-managing a "neurotypical" person and they're in your office crying because of some bad thing that happened to them, it's an essential skill for your job to know that you don't make the story about you. Same if you're training to be a therapist.

Re: How to be a good listener

#52
post #14

> 5. Don’t relate. I see this recommendation all the time, but I know I do it all the time, and personally I often _like_ it when other people do it to me. Sometimes it's nice to commiserate or share a connection on a similar experience, and maybe even learn from what the other person already went through. Does anyone else question this common piece of advice? Can't relating be useful if it's not being used to steer…

>Does anyone else question this common piece of advice?

Absolutely. One thing I notice is that the people sharing this "advice" - while positioning themselves as amazing listeners - seem to have a disgust reaction to people sharing details about their own lives in a conversation.

Personally, if I have something I would like to speak about and feel heard about, I feel most heard when the other person is able to share some of their own thoughts and experiences. I absolutely do not feel heard when they completely remove themselves and their life from the conversation, and hit me with lifeless "open-ended questions" and "that sounds tough" platitudes that could have come from a blog post.

Re: How to be a good listener

#53
post #44

A few times on LinkedIn I’ve complained about people “story topping” like #5 in the article. Each time I’ve been brigaded by people who say that’s a “neurodiverse” trait and I’m being an insensitive clod.

I love it when other people do this online.

This is actually one of my favourite aspects of HN. People chiming in with their own experience and stories.

On the other hand I'm not exactly a neurotypical person, so there's that.

Re: How to be a good listener

#55
post #38
post #21

I went through a yearlong coaching program and one of the modules was learning how to listen. Imagine a friend tells you about a situation where their dad is starting to show signs of dementia and the strain it's putting on them as a caretaker. Level 1 listening (you're focused on yourself): - "Oh my dad had dementia, too. It's awful." Level 2 listening (you're focused on them, but parroting): - "caring for a parent…

I'd be a little freaked out if someone responded with that "level 3" response...

Level 1, normal human

Level 2, nice human

Level 3, therapist

Re: How to be a good listener

#56

Person can wallow in their thoughts, but when they engage in conversation, I'd expect them to want something else than just their words repeated back.

Yea, I think the author was spoiled with always being "listened to", in the way the author describes, and then the author was shocked, that the world doesn't revolve around him. That people don't care what he has to say. So now the author teaches us how we should get into this EXTREMELY passive state, where we mirror everything our interlocutor says, agree completely, never say anything about ourselves, and back away from any confrontation.

The guide is useful in a way, but it's useful for a particular situation: when you want to help someone emotionally. This is not a (good) general listening guide, however. Actually, it's a terrible, toxic guide.

Re: How to be a good listener

#57
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be a little freaked out if someone responded with that "level 3" response...

yeah, and the level 1 is actually good too. I understand what it is meant but the example is terrible

I do agree. I am familiar with three levels of listening, but in a slightly different way where the three levels are more about where your focus is as a listener.

Roughly it comes down to:

1. Listening but focussed on yourself, interjecting with own experiences and sometimes in the process take over the conversation with your own experiences.

2. Focussed listening but on a factual level. Asking clarifications about events, etc.

3. Focussed not only on what is being told, but the emotions behind it. Asking about how certain things impacted the person sharing something with you.

I am hugely oversimplifying here, of course. But for point 1 it doesn't mean that you can't briefly let someone know you have a shared experience. It does mean that you shouldn't make your experience take over and then dominate the conversation.

Re: How to be a good listener

#58

I'm no expert on listening, but I think do have a sense of when I personally feel heard. I don't agree with this piece at all, and I don't like the vibe of the author. The very first paragraph has a narcissism in it that rubs me the wrong way. Like the whole world let her down for not centering her in conversations the way her therapist caretaker did. > Some simple and powerful phrases to use when someone is feeling…

I agree with you completely. The more I think about the article, the more I wonder - why would such ridiculous thing be voted up on HN?

How to listen to someone: if someone is angry, don't listen to him at all and just imagine that he says he's hurt. Sorry, but that's just idiotic.

Re: How to be a good listener

#59
post #33

As someone who went out of their way and studied being a good listener, none of these are wrong, but I don't see it as being the best way of learning how to be a good listener. Reading about how to be a good listener can only get someone so far - watching someone demonstrate it and talking about it is the surest way to understand what it means. Specifically, Reflective listening[1], Clean language[2], and the approac…

On the flip side, if you are too good of a listener, people stop listening to you because they enjoy being listened to. You become the calm person that attracts all the anxious into their lives. Sometimes, you have to stop holding space for others for them to finally understand that, no it's not ok what they are doing anymore. To help others listen to you, you realize you have to learn to scream, because as the autho…

I feel like i've been in this space for a few years. I have some close friends, who I really like. But I realized that its almost all them opening themselves up to me. When I am struggling myself I find it really hard to open up and talk about what I want to talk about. I think some of it is something I can improve on myself though

Re: How to be a good listener

#60
post #31

Does anyone know who is the author? Apart from "Molly Brodak". Is it this[1] person, perhaps? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Brodak

Yeah, it's her. This piece is linked from her blog at: https://sibilantfricative.wordpress.com/

First paragraph of the OP and I knew in my bones it was written by someone with a personality disorder. Since her death, her husband published his memoir in 2023. The serial cheating, open suicide ideation, unresolved childhood trauma and general toxicity to herself and others is completely consistent with the tone of the article.

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