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Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

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Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#81

Post by victorstanciu »

tjoff wrote: post #23

Spotify etc. helped curb piracy because it was convenient. Ebooks should be convenient, but are not. The experience is much worse than physical books and barely any cheaper. It pains me everytime I try to buy one. Then came the ipad, and while the ipad is terrible for long reading it isn't obvious why an ebook would be better so most dismiss it right away.

> The experience is much worse than physical books [...]

We must have different reading habits, because my experience has been the exact opposite. On my Kindle I can read every book with the same font, same text size, same layout, same backlight. I don't have to struggle to balance big heavy doorstops, a book feels the same in my hand whether it has 200 or 1200 pages. The latest Paperwhite models are waterproof too, so I can take mine with me in the tub with no fear of dropping it in the water and ruining it. I read dozens of books each year, and a big reason for that is how convenient it is to do it on an e-reader.

Now, tech books, graphical novels, comics? For sure an e-reader sucks for these, and I still buy these in paper form, but for plain words (fiction and non-fiction)? You can pry my Kindle from my cold dead hands.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#82

Post by gsich »

medler wrote: post #37
gsich wrote: post #26

Audiobooks are a transfer from 2D to 1D. You can't skip boring lines, reread a passage.

For me, audiobooks present good analogues for both these cases. I never skip lines in a book, but I might increase my reading speed if something is getting repetitive. Audiobooks also let you increase speed, and I often go to 2.5x or even 3x for low-information-content audiobooks. For re-reading, you can skip back 30 seconds to re-listen.

Yes. But with a book I can reread a passage several pages or chapters back and can visually search for a pattern.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#83

Post by ygra »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #40
pbrowne011 wrote: post #3

Treating all audiobooks equally is a mistake. Audio books are a transformation function applied to physical books. Asking whether they count as books is asking the wrong question. The more important question is: "what am I trying to get out of reading this book? And will an audiobook help me to do this better?" The answer to this question will be unique to every person and every book. I read quite a few books for the…

I actually have the opposite experience, at least with the books I read. Nonfiction is typically highly repetitive and redundant so I find it suits audiobooks far better. Meanwhile fiction has a lot of subtle nuance and rewards carefully reading each sentence. Of course this depends on what books you read in each category, if it’s a physics textbook vs Colleen Hoover then it’s the opposite.

For me this difference manifests in the speed I can listen to. I typically listen to podcasts at 1.7× speed whereas I listen to (fiction) audiobooks at 1× speed. Partly this is because it lets me appreciate a good reader's work better with intonation, different voices, etc., but it's probably also what you note that they're at different information densities.

Even so, I tend to rewind when I notice I missed something, e.g. due to my attention being needed elsewhere for a bit. I mostly listen while cycling and as long as I'm outside the city there's few distractions, but when sharing the streets with others there's often distractions that are more important than listening.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#84

Post by tjoff »

victorstanciu wrote: post #81
tjoff wrote: post #23

Spotify etc. helped curb piracy because it was convenient. Ebooks should be convenient, but are not. The experience is much worse than physical books and barely any cheaper. It pains me everytime I try to buy one. Then came the ipad, and while the ipad is terrible for long reading it isn't obvious why an ebook would be better so most dismiss it right away.

> The experience is much worse than physical books [...] We must have different reading habits, because my experience has been the exact opposite. On my Kindle I can read every book with the same font, same text size, same layout, same backlight. I don't have to struggle to balance big heavy doorstops, a book feels the same in my hand whether it has 200 or 1200 pages. The latest Paperwhite models are waterproof too,…

I agree, I meant the experience of buying books.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#85

Post by voganmother42 »

pbrowne011 wrote: post #3

Treating all audiobooks equally is a mistake. Audio books are a transformation function applied to physical books. Asking whether they count as books is asking the wrong question. The more important question is: "what am I trying to get out of reading this book? And will an audiobook help me to do this better?" The answer to this question will be unique to every person and every book. I read quite a few books for the…

I think podcasts, audiobooks, and books are all information, and in general there are a huge number of purposes and formats and its a bit silly to treat any type of presentation as being specific to a particular purpose. Not everyone has the luxury to access information in their preferred format either.

For me what is often challenging is how much variation can go into the audio that can challenge my purpose, a dry or mechanical recitation of the text vs a skilled telling vs a full cast that is comprised of a huge variety of performers.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#86

Post by funcDropShadow »

RheingoldRiver wrote: post #5

Listening to audiobooks is reading, end of story. Quit gatekeeping, free time to sit with a book & do nothing else concurrently is a huge luxury. FWIW, recently I've started listening to audiobooks of nonfiction books while also reading along with the physical copy. Sometimes I pause the audiobook to jot notes down in the margins. I listen at about 3x speed so this helps me go a LOT faster than I could read myself an…

> Listening to audiobooks is reading, end of story. Quit gatekeeping,

What is it with people complaining about so called gatekeeping. Most of the time there is nobody guarding the gate to keep people outside. Usually, there is just some reality of life that if you don't put in the work, you don't get the reward. Listening to audiobooks, can be entertaining or very educating or boring just as reading a book. But I severely doubt that there are more then 10 human beings (obviously made up number) that can listen to a classic algebra math book with all the proofs and get the same learning experience as from reading and working through a paper book with a stack papers and a pencil. On the other hand, listening to Elon Musks autobiography is something I can do while driving without any problems.

> FWIW, recently I've started listening to audiobooks of nonfiction books while also reading along with the physical copy.

That is an interesting approach. I've bought several books in their paper and audio book form to listen them first and use the paper as reference later. I will try using both at the same time.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#87

Post by RheingoldRiver »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #86
RheingoldRiver wrote: post #5

Listening to audiobooks is reading, end of story. Quit gatekeeping, free time to sit with a book & do nothing else concurrently is a huge luxury. FWIW, recently I've started listening to audiobooks of nonfiction books while also reading along with the physical copy. Sometimes I pause the audiobook to jot notes down in the margins. I listen at about 3x speed so this helps me go a LOT faster than I could read myself an…

> Listening to audiobooks is reading, end of story. Quit gatekeeping, What is it with people complaining about so called gatekeeping. Most of the time there is nobody guarding the gate to keep people outside. Usually, there is just some reality of life that if you don't put in the work, you don't get the reward. Listening to audiobooks, can be entertaining or very educating or boring just as reading a book. But I sev…

> What is it with people complaining about so called gatekeeping

Because that's what it is. I spent a couple years reading /r/fantasy daily, and about once a month or so there would be a post something along the lines of "My SO/close friend/family member thinks I don't read because I listen to audiobooks. Are they right?" People believe there's debate about what they read there's debate about, and it can lead to accusatory comments like that. It's damaging when someone wants to be part of a community and feels like an outsider when they shouldn't.

> that can listen to a classic algebra math book with all the proofs and get the same learning experience as from reading and working through a paper book

1. I recently watched this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxDd8ocpcHk discussing what constitutes "valid" reading. Someone who reads 20 romance novels a month is a voracious reader just as much as someone who spends 3 years to get through Rudin. Reading romance novels is reading. Reading Star Wars novels is reading. Reading self-help books is reading.

2. Listening acuity improves with practice. If you listen at 3x speed (or faster, depending on the speed of the narrator), it's kind of incredible how many more words you can keep in your head at a time.

3. (This point is redundant because, see point 1) People attend math lectures all the time. Sure, there will be visual aids but who says you aren't supplementing with visual aids when you listen to an audiobook when you're learning something? And while I haven't researched it myself I'm sure there are a lot of accessibility options for listening to math that help a lot as well.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#88

Post by pxtail »

pbrowne011 wrote: post #3

Treating all audiobooks equally is a mistake. Audio books are a transformation function applied to physical books. Asking whether they count as books is asking the wrong question. The more important question is: "what am I trying to get out of reading this book? And will an audiobook help me to do this better?" The answer to this question will be unique to every person and every book. I read quite a few books for the…

> Audio books are a transformation function applied to physical books

Very true - for me this is source of the problem with difficulty to find good quality technical audiobooks, I think that in order to "work" correctly, to properly deliver technical knowledge such audiobooks would have to be structured differently and thought out with upfront knowledge that information will be delivered in audio form.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#89

Post by ljsocal »

MezzoDelCammin wrote: post #49

Seems we're fairly divided here between "audiobooks are for fiction" and "they work great as learning resource". How about a slight tangent / challenge: Try to give a few examples of "which" audiobooks/podcasts/lectures are in Your own personal Top 3 or so (and maybe why). My personal kickoff (I'm mostly in the fiction / "I need narrative" camp): 1. "The Poet's Corner" by John Lithgow (narrated by himself). This book…

1) Kerouac’s “On The Road” read by Sean Penn.

2) Comedian’s autobiography self-preformed (Martin Short, Guy Brannan, Trevor Noah and Jerry Seinfeld)

3) A Life in Parts, Bryan Cranston

Sometimes I listen to an audiobook for a few chapters to hear the author’s “voice” and then start the print version from the beginning. A writer for whom this isn’t necessary? Garrison Keillor whose distinctive voice I can hear at-will and who writes exactly as he speaks.

Re: Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?

#90

Post by funcDropShadow »

RheingoldRiver wrote: post #87
funcDropShadow wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Listening to audiobooks is reading, end of story. Quit gatekeeping, What is it with people complaining about so called gatekeeping. Most of the time there is nobody guarding the gate to keep people outside. Usually, there is just some reality of life that if you don't put in the work, you don't get the reward. Listening to audiobooks, can be entertaining or very educating or boring just as reading a book. But I sev…

> What is it with people complaining about so called gatekeeping Because that's what it is. I spent a couple years reading /r/fantasy daily, and about once a month or so there would be a post something along the lines of "My SO/close friend/family member thinks I don't read because I listen to audiobooks. Are they right?" People believe there's debate about what they read there's debate about, and it can lead to accu…

> discussing what constitutes "valid" reading.

How can reading be valid or invalid? In my opinion the usage of the word valid in such a context is complete, nonsense. It is similar to trans people proclaiming, they are invalidated by misgendering. Some go even as far as claiming that their right to exist is questioned. That all happens in the mind of the self-proclaimed victim. If I don't want to use made up pronouns that change every hour, I don't deny anyone the right to exist and live a happy live. I am simply exasperated by the ever growing demands of them.

Back to reading. If you or anybody else doesn't feel welcomed enough by readers of great classical literature, it doesn't mean anything. Nobody is entitled to be respected as a "valid reader" by every other "valid reader" out there. If they don't see the value in what you read, it is their loss, who cares. Try to find someone else to form a peer group and don't complain about being kept out by a gatekeeper.

> 2. Listening acuity improves with practice. If you listen at 3x speed (or faster, depending on the speed of the narrator), it's kind of incredible how many more words you can keep in your head at a time.

That goes completely against my expectations and experience, with hearing up to factor 1,5 albeit. But, I'll try it.

> 3.

Usually students write down in math lectures.

My overall point is, there is no such thing as "valid" or "true" reading. There are different modes of consuming long form texts, some have advantages over others for certain kinds of texts or certain kinds of consumers. [1] The fact that not everybody agrees on that should not make anybody feel being kept out. Expecting to be supported by everybody is a sure way to be disappointed.

[1]: I've read somewhere, but can't find the reference at the moment. That the same complaints happened when people started to write down Homer's works instead of learning them by heart.

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