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The salesman and the developer

swombat.com

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Re: The salesman and the developer

#11

Post by babarock »

Completely off topic (or is it?) I find myself being quickly turned off by all these blogposts which 'casually' mention Steve Jobs on every single occasion the author comes across. Taken individually, each of these articles (like this one) would have a prefectly defendable reason to mention it. I'm annoyed with the trend.

I have mentioned this issue before in other comments threads on HN. Am I the only one annoyed by that? Yes Steve Jobs was a beloved public figure and an outstanding entrepreneur, but mentioning his name ("casually") won't add value to just any blog post. Unless I'm reading something written by an official biographer, or any other expert on the matter, I don't like reading Jobs name in a completely unrelated articles.

So this is my plea for bloggers: Stop doing that. Stop mentionning 'tech startup' celebrities in your posts; in my view it dillutes your point instead of adding anything to it. For the record, I'm reacting to the mention of Jobs' name because it's the trend of the moment, just like Zuckerberg's was a few years back. It's the celeb name dropping that bothers me, not the work of Steve Jobs.

Also, I apologize for the harsh tone. I really enjoyed reading everything else in the article and felt that it presented a serious miscommunication issue between builders and sales people in an otherwise very straight-to-the point yet witty and amusing fashion. Good post!

Re: The salesman and the developer

#12

Post by corin_ »

nadam wrote: post #8

developer and salesman: I miss the marketing guy from this story. (Or at least either the developer or the salesman should also wear the hat of a marketing guy.) I think the rule of thumb is this: if you sell to the 'masses' you need great marketing, if you sell to only a few clients you need great sales. I think of Steve Jobs more as a marketing guy than a salesman.

I agree with your rule of thumb except I look at it from another angle. Jobs was a salesman because while he sold to the masses, he did it on a 1-to-x level, it was about speeches, etc. He basically did what any salesman does, he just did it to huge audiences.

Marketing is about pulling the strings to promote something, not being the guy who actually persuades people.

Re: The salesman and the developer

#13

Post by damiongrimfield »

Auguste wrote: post #9

This story sounds familiar. Are the names of the salesman and developer Bear Claws and Jeremiah Johnson? :) http://youtu.be/FcsXC2xFis4?t=2m50s

my father used to watch that movie at least once a month, usually with a bourbon in his hand, and alway a shit-eating grin on his face. i'm positive he wishes he could have been a mountain man when he 'grew up'.

Re: The salesman and the developer

#14

Post by swombat »

tferris wrote: post #7

Another silly generalization of developers and business people (here called sales men). Maybe the drawn stereotype matches many folks out there but this view is aged and not valid anymore. Both the pure biz guy will die soon in the woods without any technical mindset and the dev will die soon when just waiting and hacking at the campfire. And together they won't be stronger. The picture the OP draws is from the past…

Worth pointing out that I didn't mean to imply that these skills have to be in separate people.

A single person can be a developer, a salesperson, a manager, and a plethora of other things that are required to build a successful business. Most new entrepreneurs will not be competent in all those areas, but experienced ones will, I agree, have at least a baseline level of competence in all the key places (which includes sales and making things).

That said, it feels like you might be the one generalising... I know some successful and talented entrepreneurs of both kinds. Some are generalists who do everything. Some specialise in what they're good at and partner up with others who make up for their gaps. In my own business (which I consider successful), I myself am clearly more on the build/delivery side while my cofounder is clearly more on the sales side. I can do sales (not very well), and she can write grant applications, but if we were to swap roles the business would die. So, both types of people can build successful businesses.

Re: The salesman and the developer

#15

Post by swombat »

FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #10

There's something about the story that, in its telling, feels a little leaky. The developer is getting the cabin in order, the salesperson is out bear-hunting, and we assume the bear is the potential client. While the developer is still building, the salesperson is trying to find bears. He then lures the bears into a cabin which, from its description, was not built for the purpose of capturing bears. So why was the s…

So why was the salesperson hunting for bears when the more appropriate target might have been deer? Or other hunters needing a place to stay? Oh... he got bored before it was even finished, so doesn't know who the ideal client is.

Looking at it from a "Lean startup" perspective, you could say that the salesperson bringing that bear in enabled the business to figure out that actually, it should be targeting deers instead. I think we're both pushing the metaphor beyond its useful limits though :-)

Re: The salesman and the developer

#16

Post by arethuza »

corin_ wrote: post #12
nadam wrote: post #8

developer and salesman: I miss the marketing guy from this story. (Or at least either the developer or the salesman should also wear the hat of a marketing guy.) I think the rule of thumb is this: if you sell to the 'masses' you need great marketing, if you sell to only a few clients you need great sales. I think of Steve Jobs more as a marketing guy than a salesman.

I agree with your rule of thumb except I look at it from another angle. Jobs was a salesman because while he sold to the masses, he did it on a 1-to-x level, it was about speeches, etc. He basically did what any salesman does, he just did it to huge audiences. Marketing is about pulling the strings to promote something, not being the guy who actually persuades people.

I personally don't view sales that way. For me sales is a narrowly defined role whose job is to close individual sales - so you can't really do it "to the masses".

Re: The salesman and the developer

#17

Post by guynamedloren »

babarock wrote: post #11

Completely off topic (or is it?) I find myself being quickly turned off by all these blogposts which 'casually' mention Steve Jobs on every single occasion the author comes across. Taken individually, each of these articles (like this one) would have a prefectly defendable reason to mention it. I'm annoyed with the trend. I have mentioned this issue before in other comments threads on HN. Am I the only one annoyed by…

Couldn't agree more. Thanks for this.

Re: The salesman and the developer

#18

Post by FuzzyDunlop »

swombat wrote: post #15
FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #10

There's something about the story that, in its telling, feels a little leaky. The developer is getting the cabin in order, the salesperson is out bear-hunting, and we assume the bear is the potential client. While the developer is still building, the salesperson is trying to find bears. He then lures the bears into a cabin which, from its description, was not built for the purpose of capturing bears. So why was the s…

So why was the salesperson hunting for bears when the more appropriate target might have been deer? Or other hunters needing a place to stay? Oh... he got bored before it was even finished, so doesn't know who the ideal client is. Looking at it from a "Lean startup" perspective, you could say that the salesperson bringing that bear in enabled the business to figure out that actually, it should be targeting deers inst…

Good reply. We could likely refactor the story based on all manner of different startup and corporate perspectives. One might involve the developer pointing his bear-rifle at the salesperson out of sheer frustration! (Personal experience perspective.)

Re: The salesman and the developer

#19

Post by IsaacL »

babarock wrote: post #11

Completely off topic (or is it?) I find myself being quickly turned off by all these blogposts which 'casually' mention Steve Jobs on every single occasion the author comes across. Taken individually, each of these articles (like this one) would have a prefectly defendable reason to mention it. I'm annoyed with the trend. I have mentioned this issue before in other comments threads on HN. Am I the only one annoyed by…

Yes, couldn't agree more.

I agree with the people that say that future generations will see Steve Jobs as revolutionary a businessman as Henry Ford. But this hagiography has got to stop.

Let's put things in perspective. Steve Jobs made really good products that sold at a high-margin and made a lot of money. But hang on -- another way to see it is he focused on the features customers really did care about: nice UX, beautiful cases -- and ignored the features they said they cared about but didn't really: processing power, durability. That's it. He found a management style that worked for him, and it's worth looking at how he did it, but Apple and Steve Jobs had a bunch of flaws which are worth looking at as well.

What annoys me is that people can see the awesome parts, or they can see the flaws, but few people manage to see both. Even people like Isaacson (his biographer) who note both these sides don't really analyse it in a deep way. It would be interesting to read the history books of a 100 years time to see how Steve Jobs has been remembered after his impact has been put into proper perspective.

(Though another thing that annoys me is when the top of HN comment threads become dominated by an off-topic discussion. Sorry swombat!)

Re: The salesman and the developer

#20

Post by wglb »

marcusf wrote: post #2

The main problem is when you're going bear hunting and they bring back a stampede of wolves. Wholly impossible to kill with the gun you brought, but if you tweak it just a little, you can kill them as well. Then the next time it's a an antler, that you can't kill like that due to regulation, but with just a few tweaks again. Great sales people are a game changer. People that can sell your vision and convince the audi…

How exactly do you tweak a gun? And what sort of gun that will kill bears ain't gonna kill a wolf? And I am not sure that wolves stampede.
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