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I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

gemini.google.com

101–110 of 156 posts

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#101
post #64

I find fascinating how each of these instances ends up a PR nightmare. The price you pay for mysticizing a product, selling a mere text prediction model as Artificial Intelligence

Totally. People tend to forget it's just code.

In fact, these public failures from Google AI provide an important public service: they remind us that there's nothing magical about LLMs. It's just code, and it is hard as hell to debug.

(At some point, someone will have to call it a day, throw everything away, and start from scratch.)

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#102
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I laughed out loud. Is this actually a common sentiment in some circles, or just someone blowing off steam? The question occurs to me because I feel like I just spent 30 years on forums like HN reading nothing but effusive praise for the cleverness and elegance of C and Unix.

>> reading nothing but effusive praise for the cleverness and elegance of C and Unix It isnt that these are GOOD ideas, it's just that no one has come up with better ones.

I think this is an important distinction and actually sort of a brave one.

That a technology stack can be the basis of an entire industry and still be unappealing and lacking for people that are obliged to interact with it directly/regularly.

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#103
post #48

This is definitely an age gate I’ll stand behind. C++ has unimaginable power to ruin the minds of our young children.

I think languages teaching people of any age that wasting enormous amounts of clock cycles for basic book keeping is much more detrimental. It causes one to have to buy a new machine every few years because the damned crap that people write is just getting slower without any end to this process in sight. I think it is time to realize the value of zero cost abstractions. Well, there actually are not zero cost abstract…

Unfortunately this has less to do with languages and more to do with complexity and apathy.

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#104
post #19
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1972 - Dennis Ritchie invents a powerful gun that shoots both forward and backward simultaneously. Not satisfied with the number of deaths and permanent maimings from that invention he invents C and Unix. http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-m...

I laughed out loud. Is this actually a common sentiment in some circles, or just someone blowing off steam? The question occurs to me because I feel like I just spent 30 years on forums like HN reading nothing but effusive praise for the cleverness and elegance of C and Unix.

UNIX and C have truly ruined generations of programmers. Sure they may be practical, but having a world view that this hacky software from the 70s was the pinnacle of good design that should be continued to be emulated is a shame. For some people the way UNIX works is their mental model of how all computing works and they are not willing to accept change to it.

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah all this "gotcha" stuff around AI is pretty ridiculous. But it's because there is a massive cognitive dissonance happening in society and technology right now. We want maximum freedom for ourselves to say, do, build, and think whatever we want, but we also want to massively restrict the ability of others to say, do, build, and think whatever they want. It's simply not possible to satisfy both of these needs in a…

They should just have "Safe AI" switch like "Safe search" switch that turns all unnecessary danger filters off. The rule should be "what you can find in Internet search cannot be dangerous."

I would personally like to have it working that way.

But I also understand that it wouldn't work for people who have the expectation that once a dangerous content is identified and removed from the internet, the models are re-trained immediately

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#106
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I laughed out loud. Is this actually a common sentiment in some circles, or just someone blowing off steam? The question occurs to me because I feel like I just spent 30 years on forums like HN reading nothing but effusive praise for the cleverness and elegance of C and Unix.

In the 70's and 80's C and Unix were incredible tools that were so close to useless that they could run on cheap computers, and so unappreciated that you could get them with a personal budget or for free. They both were extremely important on the popularization of computers and on unlocking the huge amount of value they provide today. But not due to any quality that we value today.

Good perspective. Kinda leaves me with "these technologies had their day but we've mostly moved on."

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#107

Woe is Google. How did it get this bad?

They used an LLM, that's how.

On the surface level, Google tends to release stuff right away to get feedback, which means you get to see all the bullshit right away. OpenAI carefully manages access to their models, which increases hype, even if that isn't what they intended.

Going deeper, a lot of Google's core[0] search business relies on having a healthy information ecosystem. Their search algorithms - e.g. PageRank, TrustRank, etc - use scarcity as a proxy for signals of quality. That's been chipped away at by linkspam and blogspam schemes. Furthermore, social media and even Google's own Knowledge Graph feature have created incentives to pull information out of Google. This decay has happened over decades, and Google fights back against it over time, but it keeps being a problem for them.

Now, if I wanted a weapon to Fucking Kill Google[1] with, an LLM would be my go-to. While there are ways to defeat Google's antispam measures, they all leave pretty obvious statistical evidence that can be detected and compensated for. LLMs generate garbage text that is nearly indistinguishable from humans, at extremely low cost, which can be used to Sybil-attack the Google search algorithm basically forever.

Ok, but what does that matter for the quality of Google's LLM? Well, the quality of that garbage text depends greatly on both the quality and quantity of the training data fed into it. OpenAI specifically stopped crawling the public Internet for text around the release of GPT-3 for fear of feeding new models the output of prior models. In other words, they have a huge cache of freely obtained "low-background metal[2]" that Google is having to scrounge around for.

Furthermore, we have to keep in mind that none of these models are pure representations of the training set. If they were, they wouldn't answer questions or follow directions very well. There's a second, parallel training set that OpenAI had to build to turn GPT-3 into ChatGPT, which isn't crawled and harvested text from the Internet, but instead a list of dos and don'ts that are fine-tuned on after the initial model training is complete. This includes both basic instruction-following, refusing unsafe requests, and political alignment[3].

Google also has to build that second training set itself. Except it's almost certainly less well-developed than OpenAI's. In fact, this is the intent behind OpenAI's really long preview periods. The people using the model in preview are specifically being spied on to find out new corner cases for their models. My guess is that every stupid thing Gemini says or does[4] is something Google never even considered and thus didn't put a training set example in for.

[0] to consumers, i.e. not counting adtech

[1] https://www.theregister.com/2005/09/05/chair_chucking/

[2] Steel that has been produced before the first detonation of nuclear weapons. Due to the way in which steel is made, it absorbs trace radioactive isotopes from the oxygen in the air, effectively 'freezing' in the background radiation of the time at which the steel was made.

[3] i.e. making the bot not immediately start spitting out racist bullshit like Tay did

[4] e.g. assuming that memory safety and child safety are the same thing, drawing ethnically diverse Nazi soldiers

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#108
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I laughed out loud. Is this actually a common sentiment in some circles, or just someone blowing off steam? The question occurs to me because I feel like I just spent 30 years on forums like HN reading nothing but effusive praise for the cleverness and elegance of C and Unix.

UNIX and C have truly ruined generations of programmers. Sure they may be practical, but having a world view that this hacky software from the 70s was the pinnacle of good design that should be continued to be emulated is a shame. For some people the way UNIX works is their mental model of how all computing works and they are not willing to accept change to it.

Purely from the perspective (my own) that unique/novel mental models are often key drivers of progress, I am very much inclined to agree with you.

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#109
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I laughed out loud. Is this actually a common sentiment in some circles, or just someone blowing off steam? The question occurs to me because I feel like I just spent 30 years on forums like HN reading nothing but effusive praise for the cleverness and elegance of C and Unix.

>> reading nothing but effusive praise for the cleverness and elegance of C and Unix It isnt that these are GOOD ideas, it's just that no one has come up with better ones.

What do you mean? Even when those were created there were better ideas. Rust, Java, Javascript, Windows, Android, etc all are better ideas than C and UNIX.

Re: I'll refrain from providing code that involve concepts as you're under 18

#110
post #41

I feel bad for them, damned if they do damned if they don't.

What would they be damned for if they didn't refuse in the example linked?

I think what we saw there was a (hilarious) bug/glitch that was caused by an attempt to restrict the text generation about certain topics for certain targets.

There are two ways to avoid that bug:

1. Have a more intelligent system that understands context in a way that is more similar to what a human being would.

2.not even attempt to do this kind of filtering in the first place

Option (1) is obviously not on the table.

Option (2) would probably raise some concerns., possibly even legal ones, if for example the model would tell underage users where to buy liquor, or ferment their own beer or explain details about sexuality or whatever our society at this moment in time thinks it's unacceptable to tell underage people (which not only is a moving target, it's also very hard to find agreement within a single country let alone internationally)

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