Order a non-alcoholic drink? I do little work-related drinking these days but it is common to have male colleagues who do not consume alcohol, one assumes for either health or religious reasons. It would say for every group of 5 or more there tends to be at least 1.
Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
71–80 of 190 posts
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#72Bit of an aside, but that "low-high" context scale with the US proudly at the "tell it like it is" extreme left instantly reduces the credibility of any article where I see this. "That's an interesting idea and we should totally do lunch sometime" is Silicon Valley for "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard and never want to see you again".
> Bit of an aside, but that "low-high" context scale with the US proudly at the "tell it like it is" extreme left instantly reduces the credibility of any article where I see this.
Read further. Low context is not "telling it like it is." The U.S. is in the middle on direct-indirect negative feedback and in the middle on confrontational-avoids confrontation. The explanation of the meaning is the article too.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#73This presentation from the Long Now Foundation makes the proposition that drinking helps create society https://longnow.org/ideas/drinking-10000-years-intoxication-... > Drawing on evidence from archaeology, history, cognitive neuroscience, psychopharmacology, social psychology, literature, and genetics, Slingerland shows that our taste for chemical intoxicants is not an evolutionary mistake, as we are so often told.…
I think the "with food" bit is underrated. Bar/pub food in the West is crappy almost by definition (the occasional gastropub notwithstanding) and many/most people don't eat anything at all, while if you go drinking in Tokyo, food is an absolutely critical part of the izakaya (Japanese pub) experience.
It's also quite socially acceptable for women to go to an izakaya and drink oolong tea instead of alcohol all night long. The real social barrier for women is the next round of entertainment, which in sales circles very often entails prostitution in some form or another.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#74In its extreme alcohol is a truth serum. The ones who don't drink want to keep their secrets to themselves and can't be trusted.
The truth gets downvoted, since unpopular. As if you never saw someone get drunk and spill their beans. Alcohol removes inhibitors (at least to some people) from "drunk calling the ex" to "telling the boss that their idea is stupid".
I hate my ex and have no problem telling my boss what’s what while sober so I guess I can drink my fill.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't see how speaking your mind is confrontational or at odds with "collective harmony". Intention is all that matters in my opinion. Even in Western cultures, if you try saying something at odds with the "room" or the current bandwagon, like here on HN for example, you will feel the frowns coming your way.
Meh, different life experiences then. I've never had any trouble with it. Then again I could be autistic and haven't noticed / cared. In a business setting, the room should bend to facts, not group-think.
only those with sufficient power enough indifference can ignore the crowd
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
There should be a (weak) mushroom tea alternative at such events, I think.
MDMA would be more appropriate.
That's not so far off from how silicon valley really worked in the halcyon days.
Read "What the Door mouse said."
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
> My argument would be that these social intoxicants allow for the reduction in anxiety stress which enables a ego reduction Just a counterthought: If I your anxiety stress becomes reduced, you might be less anxious to call your boss an idiot. :-D Seriously: if you become less afraid of the social consequences, this actually might increase your ego. I know quite some people who in my observation have a stronger ego u…
The ego was always there. It was repressed by social norms and intoxicants can release those constraints. As a “boss” I actually like when people challenge me, including calling me an “idiot.” I’ve gone as far to tell people to feel free to tell me to, “fuck off” if I’m getting something wrong. It’s all about intent and trust. If we can’t be honest things don’t work.
not all bosses are like you
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#78This is only partially true from my experience as a Chinese grew up in Northern China. I think a greater factor is deliberately causing pain or embarrassment.
Like the initiation rites for fraternities or sororities, the pain is the point. The reason behind this is that a commonly shared embarrassing experience creates intimacy and loyalty.
I'm more inclined to accept this theory over others including the one from the article, because it can explain many rules observable in the drinking culture (at least in Northern China).
1. It's rude to reject an invitation to drink together from a person with higher status.
2. When many people drink together, the more you drink, the greater respect you show to others.
3. As a consequence, the person with higher status can choose to drink less than others, or they can choose to drink the same to show greater respect.
4. People with lower status should proactively invite people with higher status to drink, in the order of their status.
Therefore, in a typical drinking party (饭局), the people with lower status usually drink the most, often to the point of being unconscious or causing a scene, and that would show their loyalty.
This was part of the job for government officials and those who work with them. And people could genuinely get pretty sick from alcohol consumption. Death from drinking is not uncommon. There was even a debate on how to divy up the legal punishment to the people at the same table when this occurred. And it's not a theoretical sophistication at all.
Luckily, Xi has banned this as part of his anti-corruption campaign (八项规定, the Eight Rules), so it's less of an issue now.
Furthermore, young people in China have moved passed the drinking culture as well. Back in the university, one can choose whether to drink or not, and when one drinks, any amount to their personal preference is acceptable.
I should add that I don't drink at all, but I was often in a situation where I was supposed to drink and got asked a lot. That's why I sought an explanation for the drinking culture and I suspect that many people who participate in this culture can't explain it explicitly.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are there really? If we ignore alcohol. We have few groups: 1) Coffee / tea (caffeinated so many cant sleep after them) 2) Yerba mate (isnt it the same group as caffeinated drinks? Also availability is low) 3) sugary drinks (cola, fanta, soda..) - basically liquid diabetes 4) juices (they are sugary again even if other type of sugar) 5) milk (nobody sells / buys milk?) 6) water with lemon So if you want to sleep, don…
kombucha
Kombucha is my drink of choice, but it is fermented tea so if tea is out so is kombucha.
The other options I can think of are are flavored seltzers/flavored water, Mocktails/virgin cocktails/Shirley Temples, agua fresca, non-alcoholic beer, and herbal tea. Availability varies, of course.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think they would have a better time if they were drinking a sprite or something? Being with drunk people when you're sober is not fun for either party regardless.
Drinkers also don't like having teetotalers around them because of the bad conscience they induce.
Another part of it is that (imo) one of the biggest boons from group drinking is that it builds trust by giving people something to bond over — you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group.
Teetotalers might be there physically, but they’ve opted out of the shared experience of making themselves vulnerable.